Episodes
EP10 → Jezz Chung on Transformation, Neurodivergence and the Power of Imagination + Community
In this episode, Nora interviews Jezz Chung, a Korean-American writer, facilitator, and performer based in NYC. This Way to Change, their debut book of prose, poems, and practices, came out earlier this year. Jezz discusses their experiences with neurodivergence and disability and how these aspects of their identity intersect with their creative endeavors. The conversation delves into the power of imagination, the importance of disabled representation in media, and the impact of collective liberation.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] This is So Life Wants You Dead, a show that explores the intersection of illness, disability, healing, and creativity. I had an emergency organ transplant in 2015, and despite the drama of the situation, it turned out that near death was fertile ground for my creative life. Now, all these years later, I can say that was what saved me.
That and a brand new liver. I'm Nora Logan, and this is a podcast on how looking at death Helps you live. Today my guest is Jezz Chung. Jezz is a writer, facilitator, and performer who has trained across a variety of justice, healing, and creative practices for the past decade. They explore the intersection of personal and collective change, applying their studies in psychology and communication to write stories and create experiences that help imagine a liberated future.[00:01:00]
Their Korean American, queer, auDHD experiences are embedded into their multimodal practices. recognized internationally by El País, Público, Vogue Italia, Harper's Bazaar, The Cut, Time Out, and them. Jezz has an ongoing project with Deem Journal called Dreaming Different where they have conversations with artists and cultural workers about world building through the framework of neurodivergence.
You can find a copy of their debut book, This Way to Change, anywhere books are sold. They are an alum of experimental theater company, New York Neo Futurists, and an actor with SAG AFTRA. Jezz has lived in Georgia, Texas, California, and now lives in New York. On today's episode, we talk about the power of imagination in overcoming obstacles, finding inspiration in other disabled artists and activists, and the importance of disabled representation in media and the arts.
Here's the [00:02:00] conversation. Welcome to So Life Wants You Dead, Jezz. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Something that I did for a live show, but I don't actually generally do in my audio recordings is something that you do on your own podcast is a visual description.
And you inspired me to ask you today, if you would start with visual description of yourself. Sure. Thanks so much for having me on your show. My name is Jezz. I am a Korean femme person with really long black hair. Like my hair is currently wavy and it goes all the way down to my waist, below my belly button.
I have tattoos all across my arms, scattered. I'm usually have some fun makeup on today. I have some neon pink squiggles above my [00:03:00] eyes and some chrome studs. Thank you. I'll also describe myself. I have curly black hair. I'm a white woman. I have very shiny makeup on at the moment, that I'm noticing and I'm wearing a striped
long sleeved shirt and I have these gold goldish chrome nails that I love to look at at the moment and I'm so grateful that you're here and you've just published your first book, This Way to Change, A Gentle Guide to Personal Transformation and Collective Liberation. It's a book of poetry, prose, and practices, and I truly loved reading it.
I, I really didn't want it to end. It was so full of wisdom and packed with information. And yet I found it so gentle and easy to digest. [00:04:00] And honestly, I read it on my Kindle and the whole thing is highlighted. Oh my gosh. Wow. I guess it's like, like, there's so much as I was preparing for this.
I was like, well, We're gonna need four hours if I, if I go through every highlight and I know myself how big of an undertaking it is I've written a book proposal and I'm in the midst of years long process of working on a book myself. And I'm curious to know how you're feeling now that it's out in the world and, and other people are reading it and reflecting back to you.
Especially because it's, it's such a vulnerable and personal book in many ways. It is, definitely. And I super appreciate that feedback, especially to know that all those intentions are landing. I did want it to be gentle. I wanted it to be accessible. Even with poetry, when I, I, I have loved poetry ever since I was young, but sometimes I feel like poetry is written for me.
Like I feel dumb is such an ableist concept, but I [00:05:00] feel dumb reading poetry sometimes. I'm like, why don't I understand this? And then I'm Googling all these words these big words that I don't know. And then just, I'm like, am I missing a metaphor? I'm such a literal thinker, as an autistic person that I'm like, am I missing something?
So I wanted. I, I felt really insecure about my poetry a lot because I just don't write like a lot of poets that I've read. And I purposely want my poems to feel like a conversation and like someone is just in the room with you, because poetry to me is my most honest way of expressing myself. And so I wanted it to feel like someone just in the room like gently story time or just I think I was very specific with cadence and repetition and even the way that it's visually laid out So I wanted it to be that for people so it's been a really it's been a confronting feeling in a lot of ways confronting the impact that I [00:06:00] intended to make and then knowing that it's making that impact is kind of wild like, "oh, wow, it really worked".
It really is doing its thing. But then also confronting in that, I write about this in one of the poems. This is my version of flying where I say, you know, it feels really wrong receiving, it feels wrong to receive praise because it feels like I'm taking credit for God. I'm taking credit for something that I channeled.
And this book is so much about collective, like the collective. I really, really want readers to be changed by it and figure out how they can contribute to collective liberation. That's my biggest, like if people can find their role and place in collective liberation, that's beautiful to me instead of like, Oh, I think you're like you, Jezz Chung, your words are beautiful and whatnot.
That's a plus sure. As an, as a writer and as an artist, that's beautiful. But for me, I'm so focused on that impact piece that it [00:07:00] is. It's a lot, it's a lot of feelings, but overall, in interactions like this, when I get to hear someone's really specific feedback, it's really, it's confronting in a beautiful way.
Mm. Yeah, I love that. And, and also I think something that in reading the book that comes through so much of it, you really manage to create a call to action for collective liberation in a way that feels like it's for, it's for everyone. And it's also for disabled people. What can you do within the limitations that you potentially have?
What can you do to find support and community when we're living under an ableist oppressive society? And it can feel really difficult at times to know how to show [00:08:00] up and you use your own experience as a way to illustrate what you did. And, but then you offer ideas and practices and suggestions without telling the reader what to do.
But it feels like you, you're so joyful in the way you describe it, that it feels like, why wouldn't I do this? This is, I want to, I want to join in the collective liberation. Take me there. And you do, you take us there. Oh, I love that. I love, and it's, and especially the piece about, I think I craved, I'm sure maybe when you understand in your book writing process too, you want to write the book that you want to read and that you wish existed.
And I'm such a, I'm, I'm a self help nerd. Like I will read self help books and even I don't like that I don't like the term self help, but. Whatever. It's a, it's a thing. It's a zeitgeist. There's so many books in that category, so many [00:09:00] amazing books that have been written and been popularized, but how many are neurodivergent and disability informed now are getting more trauma informed books, which is great, which I think there's a lot of crossover and disability neurodivergence.
I think people, I mean, everyone who. It's who is disabled and neurodivergent has experienced a very specific forms of trauma. So there are trauma informed books like that, but Yeah, there just wasn't a book that, that felt emotional and raw and real and talked about the messiness of being disabled and the frustrations of, constantly pushing against an ableist society.
Yeah. And you, you do such a good job of crediting the people that come before you and admitting to that self help because I'm also a self [00:10:00] help nerd, like admitting to how much you love the self help genre, resources and yeah, like just all of it, but also poets and activists.
and changemakers and all the people who come before you. And it's actually something that when I got to the end and you had that resources list, and you also listed the books you were reading while you, you wrote your book, I found it to be so soothing. And it also struck me as empowering for readers hungry for more.
Why did you make the choice to do that? For me, the authors, authors and artists that I love the most are authors and artists who introduced me to 10 more authors and artists. And I, you know, so much of what I talk about, what I write about in this book is that we can't do it alone. It's not meant to be done alone.
Nothing is done alone. We can't heal [00:11:00] alone. We can't grieve alone. We can't grow alone. And so it was I think I just took cues from all the, all the authors and artists who I look, look to, and they're always citing other people. And I'm always, I love going down these wormhole rabbit holes of, okay, I found, I find this person I love, who informed them?
Like, where do they, how did they develop their voice and their point of view and their perspective? And then who informed them? And then I just kind of follow that trail. And I wanted to create something that, you know, it is so much like this roadmap. I wanted people to, I wanted to guide people to more, more thinkers.
And I think it's, we're also just in such a weird time right now with like, kind of like death of celebrity culture and this fall of our idols and we don't know who to turn to. And there's just so much turmoil that for me, I call them guiding [00:12:00] stars instead of role models. And for me, I'm just always like, okay, who are my guiding stars? Okay, I need to really root down and think about who it is. I can turn to in times like this, because I want to make sure I'm moving forward with a framework that is going to include as many people as possible and that's going to really contribute to liberation in a sense of like, how can more people be more free, more safe, more connected?
And I was just talking about this with my friend yesterday. I was like, what's, what is your pantheon of, I was talking to someone about what's your pantheon of disability justice thinkers? Which was such a fun thing to think about. And for me, it's Mia Mingus, Alice Wong, and Leah Lakshmi Piepzna Samarasinha.
And whenever I'm like, I feel so angry and I feel like, oh my gosh, so much is coming up about my frustrations being disabled and neurodivergent. Okay. Who can I, turn to, to know that, all right, they have been through similar [00:13:00] emotions and they have written themselves through it and they have created a body of work that people can come to and find themselves in.
And so I just wanted to show people, like, if you find me inspiring, here's who I'm inspired by. Yeah. And it's, and it's often, so I feel like with art and literature can often be quite gatekeepy and mystifying and where, how are people informed about, how did they come to this knowledge? And something I love about the, the disability justice movement and people like Alice Wong. It's so much about we're doing this together and that really comes through in your work. And I love that concept of guiding stars because it feels very true to disability justice spaces. I mean, that's the reading, reading those people helped to [00:14:00] inform me to make this podcast and to raise, raise voices of disabled people and tell our stories in
a different way. What was one of your introductions to disability justice? Like, was there a text or a person? I think it was for a long time. I was, I just, I felt quite lost. I, I became disabled when I was 28 in 2015 and I didn't know where to turn to. And I, I read, I read Audre Lorde's Cancer Journals and that really helped me.
And then, someone, I think someone gave me or someone told me to get Disability Visibility. And that really that just because it was so many different disabled voices for people who don't know Disability Visibility is a book put together by Alice Wong.
And also I'm, I'm blanking [00:15:00] on the name, but the real Care Work, Dreaming Disability Justice. Oh my gosh, you got it. You got it. Like I know. Cause that's in my, those are, those are my introductions too Disability Visibility and Care Work. Yeah. And that was through a friend. Actually, she told me, she's actually in the art world and, and she's like, you've got to read this book.
And it, it really was my introduction to it. And it was whilst I was conceptualizing the podcast. I love books so much. They can introduce us. Like those two books change my entire world completely. Yeah, Disability Visibility, seeing so many different people talk about their different disabled experiences, because in our mind, I think we just think about disability as people who use wheelchairs.
Oh, those are like, I think there's, society has this just kind of blanket idea or just, I, yeah, there's just [00:16:00] such a limited view. Yeah. And also, especially when it was my internal internalized ableism was so thick inside me that it took me a long time to even claim. the word disability in relation to it.
What, what was your, what was your turning point? What helped you claim that word for yourself? It was really those books and seeing people out in the world talking about it and I think just my own lived experience of trying to fit into, you know, I had this liver transplant when I was 28, tried to, I worked in film and TV at the time, tried to fit myself back into that industry.
It didn't work. Trying to, to continuously fit myself into spaces and places that couldn't accommodate me and then trying to figure out how to build a new [00:17:00] world for myself and a different existence, which is still a struggle because it's, it doesn't feel like it exists, but something I love about your book and your, your work in general is that it's, there's this major commitment to building a different world because we can.
It just, it takes imagination and it takes some extra, I don't want to say the word work, but it is. It does. Yeah. It is labor. I mean, living is labor. Laborious. Yeah. Being alive is laborious. Yes. It is. It's tiring. I'm like, wow, taking care of myself is truly a full time job. It is. I say that all the time.
Yes. It really is. I want to go back a little bit. So our listeners who aren't familiar with your work, understand your background a little bit. So you identify as disabled [00:18:00] and neurodivergent. And you were diagnosed with autism relatively late in life. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to realize you are autistic and what you were doing then and where you, where you're at now?
Yeah, that was a huge shift in my life. And I guess if I can go backwards, you know, 2020 when the pandemic emerged. Anytime there's a cultural crisis, I look to the people who are most impacted and listen to what they're saying. What do they need? What are they saying are their biggest struggles and issues?
Because they're very different than people in different positions who, you know, I think the pandemic illuminated a lot in that it kind of just exacerbated our inequities. So the rich were just super comfortable and not that much affected versus someone who doesn't have as much income is
completely shattered and everything is so much harder. [00:19:00] So I think once I looked at the landscape and saw that, wow, okay, we're really, we are experiencing this collective crisis. So much needs to change. And I started to see all these disabled people talk about the importance of masking and just really sharing all of this information like it was disabled people who I learned about the vaccines from it was disabled people who I learned about the importance of when and how to wear a mask, the importance of air filters it was disabled people who I was getting the most vital information from and I thought oh this makes sense.
I see disabled people are the most impacted in during a health crisis, of course. So for me, whenever I kind of make those connections, then I just really, that changes me, things like that just changed me. And so I was going through this journey and then I thought, Oh, I'm actually. I noticed this is affecting me a lot more [00:20:00] differently than other people.
I was being, I was one of the most COVID cautious out of anyone I knew. And I was so confused why I was the only one who was having this much anxiety and being this careful about things. And. So then I thought, okay, there's, I know there's, I've known something was different, quote unquote, different about me my whole life, but I didn't really understand what language to use to describe those differences.
Then I discovered my racial identity. Oh, I'm Asian American. Oh, that makes me different. Then I discovered, oh, I'm queer. Okay. That definitely explains a lot. And then. I, I guess 2020 was this time for me to be like, Oh, actually I'm neurodivergent and disabled too. That's why I've had these experiences. And it was through TikTok and Instagram that I saw for the first time in my life, people who were even remotely like me. Other people of color, other queer people, young people, women, [00:21:00] femme people, who are talking about their specifically late diagnosed experiences. And for anyone listening, I'm self diagnosed and I feel very confident in saying that because I've done so, like, there's this part, the part of the neurodiversity movement and the disability justice movement is this right to self determination for you to be able to look at your own experiences and say, actually, I know how to name this.
I know how to articulate this. I'm going to put this language to it. So, I, It was through a lot, a lot, a lot of mind mapping and a lot of research. It just wasn't something like I saw one video and then I decided it was through months and months and months of deep, deep, deep excavation. And then I came to this realization, "Oh my God, I'm autistic".
Wow. This explains so much. This explains my hypersensitivity is, this explains my, the fact that I've had so many social friendship ruptures throughout my life. This explains so, many things, my hyper fixations and my [00:22:00] ADHD explains some of that too, but it's just the combination of everything. And so I, I forget your question, but that's kind of been my, that's been my journey.
Yeah. And something that came to mind as you were just speaking is, you talk about giving yourself permission. And I think so often we look, look outside of ourselves for validation, to be told something that we already know we are. And something that's so empowering and just a really expansive approach is this idea of giving yourself permission because you know yourself best and it comes through years of study and grounded in mind mapping and grounded in real and true information, but you're able to give yourself that permission and it, and it gives you access to a different way of, [00:23:00] of living.
And I think there's something there with authority too of a mantra that I always repeat to myself is I am my most important source of permission, I am my most important source of permission. And I think that also comes from me trying to fit in and go through this like psychiatric process and realizing, I don't think this is a fit for me.
This is not helping me. This is making everything worse actually. And yeah, there's, there's a lot to be said about, you know, there's different care plans for different people, different things work for different people, different medicine works for different people. But for me, that was my journey of just realizing I have, yeah, I've just given.
I think that's a part of kind of breaking free too and liberating your mind and decolonizing your mind realizing that the things that we've been taught are this like end all be all authority, like it has to [00:24:00] come from this person and it has to look like this. Actually maybe that doesn't work for everybody.
And actually maybe this system is inherently racist, sexist, ableist, all of the isms, so maybe we should be a little bit more wary and give people the agency and autonomy to find the things that work for them and create access to those things too so people can find them. Right. And giving people the dignity and the respect that, to know that they can think for themselves and a source of power outside of them doesn't necessarily know better.
Yes. Yeah. So you host your own podcast, Dreaming Different. And last year on that show, you said I've really been working on coming into my own superpowers as an autistic person. I'm so tired of this limiting narrative of, I want to act. I want to be in movies and I want to be in films. I want to be on TV.
I want to be in musicals. I want to be on stages. That's something that took [00:25:00] me pretty much a decade to admit to myself. And one of the reasons why it took me that long was because I didn't see people like me. And then once I realized I was autistic, I was like, Oh gosh, there's really no autistic Asian, non binary queer Korean actor.
And so I think for anyone who doesn't really see themselves, I feel I've always had to kind of be my biggest source of permission, which is what we're talking about right now. And, and kind of always say like, all right, if this limiting thought doesn't feel good, what can feel good? I can do it my way.
That's, that's something I always tell myself. And something that I admire so much about your work and the way that you share so freely about your process is that you're giving so many other people permission by showing up for your art, the dreams you have and working towards them, but also really going at your own pace.
Can you speak a bit to that? About what it looks like for you to [00:26:00] continuously affirm yourself and also go at your own pace and continue to work on these dreams. Because I can say for myself, personally, I find it extremely, extremely helpful, it gives me permission. Oh, Nora, I so appreciate it. I needed to hear that back myself.
I think I really fluctuate with this. I, and I think that's why I write it down so much because I don't, I have to constantly remember myself because
this timeline is so unpredictable. I don't know when I'm going to be cast in my first breakthrough role. I don't know how I'm, I don't know how or when it's going to happen. I have this desire and I have this, my spiritual practices keep me really connected to my intuition. And I like to think of, when I visualize things, which, you know, I've channeled all of these, all of [00:27:00] what you said, like me being on stages and doing all these things, I've channeled them in visualizations.
When I say okay, show me my future, show me the direction I can go. And I get all these visions and then I get scared because I'm like, this feels so far off from where I am. How am I supposed to get there? How am I supposed to get there when it's just. When I don't have training or when I don't have experience and this and that and so I think Once and then when those thoughts kick in that's when it kind of leads me to the action of well then I'll train myself then I'll get training then I'll find classes Then I'll, I ended up joining a theater company last year.
Like so many things happen. And then now at this point in my life, too, so many, I'm friends with so many filmmakers that I look around and I'm like, okay, it's possible because they're doing it. Like they're living there. It's hard, but I see them doing it. And I know that it can happen. It's, it's possible.
And so it's the [00:28:00] doing it my way though. I thought I, it's really hard to continuously find that way. Cause it just feels often like, Oh my gosh, I'm pushing against so much. And even, I'll take, for example, just being on this book tour that, I'm doing slowly, very slowly. There's so much spaciousness between each dates.
I am trying to remind myself, I can't have the same expectations of myself that I would to a neuro normative person or a non disabled person. I can't hold myself to those standards because I'm setting myself up for failure then. And it's hard because for me, I'm a relatively, I've learned this for people listening, you know, low support and high support can be a bit invalidating because, or high, sorry, high functioning, low functioning can be invalidating because what does that really mean?
And that feels really like capitalistic. So there's this term low [00:29:00] support and high support. And I'm fairly day to day low support, like as an autistic ADHD, um, I'm a chronically depressed, anxious person. I can move about the world through, you know, with a sense of autonomy and independence, but things are so hard that I have meltdowns all the time.
I'm crying all the time. I'm so overstimulated all the time. I feel like my intrusive thoughts have been on 1000 since like a month before book release and kind of gearing into that. I love connecting, but I also get a bunch of social anxiety. So there's just so much going on that it's I always have to make space for me to hold myself Which just gets a lot.
It's just a lot sometimes that means I just can't experience things that other people experience and I write about that in the book of feeling like I'm being left behind and I think having [00:30:00] conversations like this with other disabled people and really talking openly about these experiences is super helpful because otherwise I can really isolate myself in the shame of it.
Yeah, I identify with that so much because, I'm also an artist and I'm a filmmaker and a writer and I have all these dreams in the same way that you have all these dreams and you're working towards them. And, for a long time, I felt like my disability stole, stole so much time from me.
Whether it's the time that I was in the hospital and sick at the end of my 20s and also into my 30s or the time it takes me now to do something because I may have to move slower than other people. And for the people listening, we had a date set for this recording and I had to move it and you were extremely understanding.
And that's just part of the reality of being a disabled person. Yes. Because sometimes things happen. [00:31:00] But the thing about a timeline is that it's also bullshit. And. Arbitrary. Made up. It's completely made up. Especially if, you know, you have a spiritual practice and, and you're really tapped into that. It's like time really isn't, isn't, isn't real.
You really know that time isn't real when you're really. practicing spirituality in whatever way that you do on a given day, but it can really feel hard to move against at times in an ableist society that expects urgency and also youth at every turn. How do you keep building without being attached to a timeline and also naming and understanding what you just said about the shame of it?
Yeah. I mean, that's a, it's a great topic for me to continue contemplating on how do we, and I love this idea of yes, time is stolen from us as disabled people, but also with our spiritual intuitive practice and artistic [00:32:00] practices, because to me, meditating is so creative and artistic. Like that is really where I practice exploring my imagination.
When we have those practices, we can. It's not even about like taking it back. It's about creating more time and, and bending time. And I love this project. My friend, Jen, Jen White Johnson, who is just an incredible disability justice thinker, created this, helped design this website with, I think with Alice Wong and a bunch of other people, it's called, I think it's called the Society of Disabled Oracles.
I know I referenced it in my books. It might be societyofdisabledoracles.com, but it's just about kind of It bends time and it's communicating through time and space. I have a lot of conversations with, with my future self. I ask my future self for advice and guidance. And I think it's something that I have [00:33:00] to make, like romanticize it and I have to make it creative and make it artistic and make it something that it's like taking agency,
reclaiming agency over my energy, really, because time is energy, but it's something that I think, especially as someone who has so many different interests, I have to remind myself that I can do it all. I might not be able to do it at the same time, and it might not look the way that it does on others.
And I have to be open to that. And I have to be open to the fact that it.
My disappointment is something that I deal with a lot, a lot, a lot. It has something to do with my, I feel like it's a big autistic trait of mine. I just get disappointed very, very, very often. And it's hard for me to move through. And that includes for me, for myself too. I get disappointed in myself.
And so it's just constant, like [00:34:00] readjustment. That's why I map things out a lot. Like I will, I have. A timeline of my kind of career and my life that I just update every year or two with major moments, milestones slash just like defining moments in my life and my career. And I just go back to that and I realize that, okay, I'm really literally working on my own timeline.
I am literally building my own timeline because it often feels like I'm starting from scratch, And something. that comes through so strongly in your book is this idea of building your own timeline, but also imagining a different way in a different world. And in an interview with Time Out about your book, you said, it took me a long time to even think acting was an option.
I always think about how one of the symptoms of oppression is a suppression [00:35:00] of our imagination. And this also made me think about how traumatic it is to be oppressed and how trauma physically shuts down our imagination. It physiologically keeps us from having access to our imagination. And you have this practice of imagining your future, imagining what you want.
And I'm curious because I think I'm curious to know myself, but I think it's also useful for people listening to know, how do you continue to have access to that imagination or how do you work on, on your imagination when maybe you don't have, I feel like you have access to it. I think about speaking of my podcast Dreaming Different, the last episode of the first season was about disability superpowers and neurodivergent strengths.
And it's. It's all about kind of acknowledging, all right, what are the things, what are the ways society disables us and how can we turn those same things [00:36:00] into superpowers and strengths? And I know there's, you know, for me, I get really sensitive with the idea of resiliency because I'm like, I'm tired of being resilient.
Why should we have to be resilient? Why don't we change the condition so we don't have to be resilient? How about that? Like how about we put our energy there, but, but we're in this current iteration of the world we're living in and what we have to deal with, whenever I feel that sense of powerlessness and that sense of defeat or despair, what I think the same things that brings me there is also the same things that takes me out.
It's my curiosity. It's my sense of sensory joy. This week, I've just been leaning a lot into sensory joy. Like, all right, I feel like shit, But what makes me feel good in terms of, I'm such a big feeler and I have such a like sensory experience to everything around me. So I'm very easily inspired and I'm very easily, like I can feel joy easily by looking at something. Looking at my plushies brings me a lot [00:37:00] of joy.
Looking at right now I'm looking at my desk and there's a jar of a bunch of colorful post its and it's my win jar that I put like every time I'm proud of myself I write it in a sticky note and then I fold it up and I put it in there. I, I designed my life in a way where everything, my wall is one of my favorite colors.
It's light fuchsia, pink, purple. My, my cup is, is pink. My other cup is like a, A light green. So there's just color and vibrancy all around me to remind me of the pulse of life. That there is so much more to experience. So much more beauty. So much joy, connection to experience. And you know, I get, my depression gets really gnarly and it has ever since I was young like it's truly a miracle that I've kept myself alive this long. But when it gets really really bad and it feels like there's just no reason to live anymore. I think about okay I've have [00:38:00] experienced amazing things in my life, which means more amazing things are coming And there's so much more emotions to experience too.
And I think embracing the, I, it's a constant practice, but I've been embracing the low, the lows with the highs, just not trying not to judge any moment as good or bad, which I write about in the book a lot. And so it's a constant, constant, constant practice. But for me, like my autistic traits, like being, yeah, of, of just being so sensitive to experiencing sensory joy is, is just things that I turn to.
Yeah, I love that. I have so many questions I want to ask you, but I'm mindful of time. And there are two, there are two things I want to touch on before we close today. Your book is peppered with so many great practices. I encourage anyone listening to go pick it up and pick up [00:39:00] the physical copy of it, and look at the practices, and sit with the poetry.
And poetry is something that's been so healing for me. Especially after becoming disabled, it's been something that I turn to when I need to what you would be connected to what you were just talking about with to my joy and to beauty and to all of it. And I also just as an aside love that you included Chen Chen in your resources section, because I got his books in the pandemic and they were really such a balm.
So much so. So it's such a balm such beautiful and unique and that Dreaming Different the title of your podcast the way that he writes is is very new it felt new to me and I was wondering if you would read a poem for us. Sure so well I had picked out every day a different death 77 great, but I also want to invite you if there's a favorite poem that you know, let's do that one [00:40:00] Okay, cool.
All right, every day a different death on page 77. This, also this poem I wrote kind of as I wrote a lot of the poems in the first section and then I wrote this kind of to summarize the entire first section. So this poem is kind of a summary of all the poems and if I was, I was trying to write a poem of like, all right, if I had to give myself a bunch of advice at once, what would it sound like?
Every day a different death. Put it in a letter. Don't send it unless you must. Write to yourself, too. Do it differently. Do it yourself, your way. Try gently. Stop when you need to. Proceed into the past as slowly as you need. Note what did, didn't feel okay. Remember this next time someone says, let me know if you need anything.
Change the story's shape. Shift seats. [00:41:00] Ask for another perspective. Walk away towards something that will hold this era of you. Keep one secret a day to yourself, just to remember you can. Phone a friend. Wish them well even if they don't answer. Ask imperfectly. Play a song on shuffle. Make a melody out of the misery.
Accept every part as a whole, even the emptiness. Make daily appointments with a child in you who wants to play. Share something without expecting it to return. Let the release be a part of the giving. Grieve what you realize you never had. Mine your history for the most generous interpretation. Listen to your intuition if it says, go no further.
Without probing for explanations. Remember, history changes with a view. When you need to pause before a decision, say, I need a minute. For goodness sake, just say it. Be [00:42:00] an observer. There is less saving needed than you think. Daydream out loud with someone you love. Breathe like a bath. Memorize this safety.
Enjoy now. Save the excess. Let boredom be a border. Pivot to a different destination. Decide when the time comes. Collaborate with change. Abolish with patience, for your own sake. Believe you know enough to continue learning. Connect the dots later. Disappear if you need. Return with reminders. Pace the progress, not all at once.
If the nightmares wake you up, breathe in, out, in, out. Exhale until the terror leaves you. Too much healing and your body will think the wound is bigger than it is. Don't write with an empty pen. The tenth time you feel the void, try filling it with something other than cannabis and or a company. If stuck, put into motion the one body part that will move.
[00:43:00] When on fire, stay away from bridges. When cringing, know that no one remembers the way you do. When you feel like you're at an end, fall into its depth. Each end deepen you. Remember you are your own roots. Remember this dying is a form of living too.
That feels like a breath. It feels like a breath to listen to that. Thank you for reading it. Thank you so much for inviting me to read it. Yeah. So finally, so much of your book is about building community and specifically queer community. It's, it really reads like a love letter to queer community and how it's been a resource for you. And in the book you write, " everyone, and especially people who are queer, black, brown, and or disabled, absorbs messages that they're not enough. [00:44:00] Friendship is where we can remember our strength, where we can remind one another we are beautiful and worthy and talented.
As the world works to harden us, friendship is where we soften. Friendship among people who have been marginalized, oppressed, and systematically excluded is an act of revolutionary world building love. And as we end today, I wondered if you can speak to that softening in friendship. It's something that's been so true for me.
It's been a refuge. It's been a balm. It's been, it's been my survival really at times. And we've kind of been circling around it a little bit, but the times we're living through are extremely hard, hard edged all over everywhere we look. And I wondered today [00:45:00] as As we're, we're leaving each other in a moment, where, where are your soft landings and what does it look like for you right now?
Right now, it looks like really making sure I'm getting quality time in with friends, which is really hard as an adult when we have such different schedules and people are stressed and busy. But. I'm just thinking about having dinner with a friend last night and her just reaching over and holding my hands for a minute and just looking into my eyes and making sure that she's really talking to my soul and really letting me hear her love.
The love that she has for me and I'm thinking about the voice notes I've been sharing with another friend where we've just been sending each other five minute voice notes of like mental health check ins and here's things I'm thinking about, here's things I'm trying differently. I think the softness comes from being able to [00:46:00] witness someone else really deep in their process and someone willing to be a witness to my process because it's not about saving each other.
It's not a, it's not even about helping each other. Sometimes, sometimes I'm like, I don't want help. Please don't try to help me right now. I really just need to be listened to. I need to be witnessed. I need to be held. And. I think holding space for someone can just look like Really being present to what they're going through and not feeling the need to jump in and save but saying wow I really see you and I acknowledge how much you're doing right now and i'm going to remember this so I can remind you in a few months when you're in a different situation and things are better I'm going to remind you you really went through it and i'm going to keep reminding you how worthy you are and i'm going to keep reminding you And, and how amazing you are, even if you can't feel that right now.
So I think just being witness to each other in these moments of just such deep crisis and change can just go so, such a long way. [00:47:00] And something that you talk about in your book is it's, it's out there for everyone. Find your community. And I think something that I've experienced myself in my disability is that it can be really isolating and lonely.
And At times it doesn't feel like there are people out there, but And if if someone's listening and they don't feel like that's out there for them it's, it is, you will find your people and those soft landings are available to everyone. It, it takes some effort, but, and something that you say in the book is like, treat friendship like a romance and, and really work on it and have, I put one thing I love so much is putting in your notes app, things that you love about someone, things that they need, access needs, really building that.
channel with people knowing what they need and want. Yes. [00:48:00] Normalized making access needs care sheets for all of our friends. I love it. I'm going to take that practice up for sure. So thank you. Jezz, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm so grateful that you took the time. Please go read Jezz's book.
We'll put all the information of where you can find everything in the show notes. Follow them on social media. How, how do people find you on social media? @jezzchung on Instagram. J E Z Z C H U N G. And you can go to jezzchung.com great. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for having me. That was our show.
So, Life Wants You Dead. This episode was made with support from Awakening Healthcare, encouraging and supporting providers and patients to reconnect with their souls. Many thanks to Stephanie MoDavis. and Ruby Shah. Our [00:49:00] illustrations are bRonaéee Fagan. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, leave us a review, rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
You can find us on Instagram at SoLifeWantsYouDead, where you can follow along for updates about the show. Thanks so much, and see you next time.