Episodes
EP009 → Chris Tartaro on Facing Mortality Twice, Creativity and Balancing Parenting with Illness
In this episode of So Life Wants You Dead, Nora sits down with Chris Tartaro. Chris Tartaro is a Television Director from Queens, NY who currently works on the Tonight Show starring Jimmy Fallon. He is a father of 3 and a husband of 1.
He is also half of “blazrdog” [pronounced Blazer Dog] Their music can be found on all streaming platforms. For more info head to blazrdog.com.
Chris has faced significant health challenges, including a Hodgkin's Disease diagnosis at age 16 and a benign brain tumor (meningioma) at age 40. In this episode, we discuss his experience with these diagnoses, how music is a guiding force in his life, and how he balances parenthood with illness. Chris shares his perspective on the emotional and practical aspects of his medical journey, the impactful role of creativity in his recovery, and how he navigates life and work post-illness.
01:54 Chris's Brain Tumor Diagnosis
03:38 Hospital Experience and Surgery
07:43 Reflections on Past Illness: Hodgkin's Disease
19:19 Impact of Illness on Personal Life and Career
24:37 Adjusting to Life Post-Surgery
31:25 Embracing Sobriety
32:08 Parenting Through Illness
33:03 Facing Mortality and Love Bombing
36:46 Creative Outlets During Recovery
39:15 Music as a Lifeline
47:09 The Impact of Illness on Creativity
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] This is So Life Wants You Dead, a show that explores the intersection of illness, disability, healing, and creativity. I had an emergency organ transplant in 2015, and despite the drama of the situation, it turned out that near death was fertile ground for my creative life. Now, all these years later, I can say that was what saved me.
That, and a brand new liver. I'm Nora Logan, and this is a podcast on how looking at death helps you live.
Today, my guest is Chris Tartaro. Chris is a television director from Queens, New York, who currently works on The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon. He is a father of three and a husband of one. He is also half of Blazordog. Their music can be found on all streaming platforms. For more information, head to blazordog. com, which will put in the show notes. [00:01:00] Chris was diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease at age 16. Then at age 40, he discovered that he had a benign brain tumor. You'll hear in this episode that we often reference his working life with a bit of a shorthand because Chris and I used to work together. On today's episode, we talk about his experience with diagnosis as a teenager and again, later in life, using music as a guiding force and balancing parenthood and illness.
I also want to apologize to my guests for the sound quality on my end. Nothing could be worse than having bad sound with a professional musician. Thankfully, he sounds fantastically crisp, and I think our conversation still holds up despite it. Here's the conversation. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.
In July of 2021, you were diagnosed with a benign brain tumor. The [00:02:00] technical name for it is meningioma. Am I pronouncing that right? I think we say meningioma. Oh, but I don't know your accent. It might be, you're pronouncing it correctly. I doubt it. Yeah. Say it one more time. Meningioma. Meningioma. Can you tell me a bit about how you came to be diagnosed in the first place?
So it was the summer of 2021. I was having sort of blurry vision, not double vision, but trouble focusing. And I just turned 40. So I was like, all right, maybe I need readers, let me go to eye doctor and see what they say. And so I made an appointment, actually, my wife, Erin, made an appointment just with whoever was open that day, it was Octoc.
Got in there and I went to this doctor on Queens Boulevard in Queens, New York, named Niloufar Ghaznouari. And she looked at me, she tested my eyes, and she was like, yeah, maybe you'll just get readers, and she said, I just want to do one more test. And then she came back and her whole tone had shifted. And it was that thing where it was like, they came back and she [00:03:00] was like, okay, I think you might want to get an MRI.
And I was like, Oh, okay, what's happening? She's like, Well, don't nothing yet. But the optic nerve is swollen and that can be indicative of problems in the brain. And I was like, Oh, okay. So then they couldn't get an MRI till the next day. That night was pretty rough. I told my wife, obviously. And we were like, Okay, let's not freak out yet.
But Was definitely something. 'cause you know, you heard it in the tone of her voice that she was concerned about it. Yeah. The biggest changes. Mm-Hmm. , the tone changes. Yeah. It becomes very somber and it's just like, you feel that more than anything. So then the next day I went to get an MRI, and two hours later she called me and was like, you need to go to the ER right now.
They found this. Giant brain tumor. You need to get checked out. It can cause a seizure at any point, or it could be really bad, stroke, all this. And so, we, me and my wife, got in the car, we dropped the kids at her sister's house, and we [00:04:00] went to LIJ in Nassau County, Long Island Jewish Hospital. Went to the ER, they took me in, and they said, yeah, you have this giant meningioma, we gotta figure out what to do with it.
And so I stayed in the hospital. For four or five days and then they were like, we need to do a surgery on this. We need to do a meningioma resection to remove it. And I was scared, and very terrified. Yeah. But it, it's at some point a sense of calm or a sense of duty comes in where you're just like, I got to do this.
This is what I have to do. Yeah. To get better. To.
And it was, a few days later, it was August 5th, that was July 29th, and then August 4th, I had the surgery before the big surgery, and then the next day they did the meningioma resection, and it was like, Eight hour surgery and I woke up [00:05:00] fine, really groggy and annoyed but as I was coming out of the anesthesia, the doctor, Dr.
Elizabeth Fontana, who side note was pregnant, was like six months pregnant when she did this brain surgery, which was incredible. Yes, on her feet. Wow, operating. And so I tell you, I had so many women doctors, I love them. They pay more attention. There's less of a thing. There's less of the less of an ego.
Exactly right. And so I was really grateful. And then the eye doctor was woman, the surgeon was woman. And then there were along the way, the hundreds of other doctors you see. But yeah, so they did that meningioma resection, I recovered. And I was out of it for five days really enjoyed the painkillers.
That's it. They're great. They're great. I slept for two days, but as, oh, sorry, as I was coming out of the anesthesia, I heard her ask Oh, can we get his wife's phone number? And I just recited it from [00:06:00] automatically I said it. It was obviously because it was rote memory. It was like I got locked in, but I thought that was a very good sign that I had remembered that.
And they were like, Oh, wow. Okay. That's great. Yeah. That was really the height of the, well not the height, but that was still really pandemic time. What was that like? It was. You know, I had been back at work pretty much for, since the start of 21 I was going in four or five days a week. And so, it didn't feel too pandemic y to me.
When you go to the hospital you have to have a mask on, and everyone was masked, and all the nurses were masked. And at that time I was like, well this is, The least of my problem, you know what I mean? If I get COVID, that's it. But the guests, the visitors were really limited. I actually had a surgery in 2021 and I wasn't allowed any it was strange.
Yes. And that's a really messed up thing to have happen when you can't. See, your family can't have one visitor at a [00:07:00] day. That's what I think the rule was. Okay, so your wife could come and see you. Yep, that's right. Yeah, and it's strange. And, the year prior my dad had passed away and we were in and out of the hospital and that was even more restrictive.
And so we were used to that. It didn't feel like a surprise. None of the kids could come and I didn't want them to, but you just tried to avoid getting that on top of anything else. Yeah. Yeah. So you also had Hodgkin's disease when you were 16 and you describe it as really I did.
Which isn't surprising, obviously. And that it also prepared you for being sick later in life. So you were 40 when you had, I'm going to try to say it again, Meningioma. Exactly. That's exactly right. Meningioma, and thought, oh, maybe life does want me dead. Which is, it's great that you're here because that's the title.
Yeah, that's the, yep. What hit you so hard about that? It's supposed to [00:08:00] be one and done, right? You're supposed to get sick if you're going to get sick, and that's it. That you've gotten liver, Failure, that's, you're done. Any complications from that, okay. But not a whole other thing. Yes, and so that was the thing.
It's like, so this is a new, separate diagnosis from the Hodgkin's. Could be a little side effect of it. That's still up for grabs, up in the air, but not definitive. I was like, okay, what am I, who did I piss off? Like that kind of thing. Right. And and that was another time. And this was how it prepared me for being sick.
The tone shift happened to that one. So it was going to my pediatrician. I was 16 and I was complaining about like chest pain and it turned into Hodgkin's. The pediatrician was nice and listening and all this. And then he's like, all right, I'm going to send you for a chest x ray and we'll see. And before me and my parents left the room, he looked at me and was like, you better not be joking about this.
And I was like, yeah. And I wasn't [00:09:00] joking. But the fact that he said that was like, oh. Now, I don't know. That's scary. And that's how it prepared me for the later sickness. Where it's like, okay, doctors change their tone when there's a problem. And then also the hospitalization stuff. I actually went to the same hospital.
That's why I went to Long Island Jewish. Because, They had all my stuff from when I had gotten treated there, was that 24 years prior? And in a lot of ways, just being a patient, you learn to be better about stuff. I had been poked and prodded a hundred times already, and I was already good at disassociating during that process.
If you're going to be treated for sickness, you got to get used to getting poked veins and blood draws all the time. Yeah, I had blood taken today actually. Really? Yeah. How'd it go? Do you zone out when you're doing it or like? A little bit. I'm just so used to it. [00:10:00] I've been a patient with my transplant both in the U.
S. and the U. K. Oh, okay. And it's weird, the little differences. And I was thinking about it today because the way that they do it here is a little different and they like, just they gingerly put the needle in your arm and they're quite deft about it. Yeah. Whereas in the U. K. they have this tool where they just stick the needle into your vein.
Oh. And it's really effective for the vein. Oh, nice. That's a big, yeah, but then it's like this tool that like sticks it in your vein. So anyway, I'm not answering your question, but I know that's interesting today because I don't know which I like better either way of trying to get in and out. Yeah. And yeah.
And also now I'm grateful because it used to be when I was really sick, it was like, they couldn't find veins. Oh, interesting. Because it was just like, I was so sick. Yeah. And they had been taking so [00:11:00] much blood over many weeks. It was a lot harder for them to actually find the vein. So now I go in and they're for 20 minutes and I go out.
Yeah. And that you can just like soldier on through that. I have a thing that I do. I cover my mouth and I look the other way. It started when I was 16. I don't know why that's the thing, but I like to usually take out of this arm because this arm is not good. I have impossible veins. They tell me all the time, Oh, you're such a hard stick.
You have squirmy veins. And so, which is making me wonder if the UK version would be better for me. I think so. Right. Cause they tell me that here. It never told me that. Right. And a lot of people. Okay. are really good at it. And some people aren't. The thing that I really hate is when they have to stick you twice.
And then they blow up your vein and you have these giant bruises on your arms. And phlebotomists are really good at it. Doctors are terrible at it. Because they never do it. And they don't know what they're doing. You have someone who's good at it right there. I have no idea how to do it. [00:12:00] Terrible.
I went to find a doctor, like a baby doctor, like a resident, so they were still learning. But try to get my arterial vein and then blood like, splurged everywhere. Oh my god. And it was like, spurting out of my face. It was so brutal. That would have been so bad. That's the thing too, it makes me mad. Yeah.
It's that's like if it doesn't work, if it's not first time in, I'm just sitting there fuming, covering my mouth. Yeah. I'm fuming mad. Yeah. And there was those people that come around in the night to take your blood, when you're in the hospital and they're pretty good most of the time.
They come and they're very gentle. If they're good, they're gentle and nice, and they try not to wake you up, but when they stick in, you kind of wake up a little. Yeah. Okay, so you were 16, and how did that play out? Yeah, as I was leaving, the doctor said, you better not be joking around, and then we went to get a chest x ray, and it was like a nearby lab or whatever, and the technicians aren't really supposed to say anything to you about [00:13:00] the results.
This guy just said something to my mom and he was just like, Oh, you see that? That's like a big mass. She freaked out and that was scary for all involved. And so it turns out that I had this mass in my chest, the lymph node in my chest. And then I had to have a biopsy. It was the, I had the biopsy the day after my 16th birthday, June 2nd, 97.
And. That surgery kicked my ass and that was like, it wasn't a big surgery. It was like a little bit, but I felt like total shit after that. And I was like, I never want to have another surgery. That was awful. Whatever I have to do to not have another surgery, blah, blah, blah. And so it turns out that it was malignant.
It was Hodgkin's disease. And I didn't know what that was at the time. So they did the biopsy. It came back. It was. malignant. And then me and my mom and my dad had to go [00:14:00] meet with the head of oncology at this children's hospital in Long Island. And he was speaking and I didn't really understand what he was saying.
He had like a thick accent, but that wasn't the problem. I just didn't understand what he was saying. And my mom was crying and my dad was playing it cool and which was normal, that would be the normal dynamic. And then the thrust of the cover, the upshot of the conversation was you have to have another surgery in a week and we're going to probably take your spleen out.
And I had just sworn off surgery. I was like, I don't want surgery ever again. But now they tell me, yeah, you got to have surgery like next Tuesday and we're going to probably remove your spleen. I like how you respond. I'm never going to have it again. That was my choice. That was what I wanted, but yeah, so I, they did that and I got really upset because that was just like a, a killer.
And that was June 11th. So June 2nd and nine days later, I had another surgery. [00:15:00] They did exploratory laparotomy, which is where they cut from your sternum down to past your belly button, down to the top of your pelvis, I think. So I have a giant scar on my chest. They put in. A port here because I was going to get chemo and they took out my spleen at the time.
It was enlarged. They didn't know they had to test it and the only way to do that was to take it out. Turns out nothing. It was enlarged, but no malignant. So then it was just, you have to have chemotherapy three sessions if you're lucky or five sessions if you're more lucky, you'd have to endure that.
I remember them saying like they had a plan, this was the plan, the curable, I really fixated on that word, curable form of cancer. And it was like 85% survival rate. And I was like, okay, now it's this dutiful thing. You have to do this, you have to go do this. It's hard. It sucks. You don't want to, you're not gonna feel good, but you have to go do it.
And so [00:16:00] then I started my chemo journey. Of course, I had to have five. Sessions of it instead of the three. And then after that I had radiation also. And after radiation, it was good. And I had to keep getting scans for a little while, but when it was over, I wasn't even 17 yet. And so I immediately was like, nothing ever happened.
I want to go away to college and just have a great time. Pretend like everything was okay. I didn't want to talk about it. I just didn't want to be that person that was like, you're the cancer kid. Just wanted to pretend like it never happened. Did you have to go out of school? Yeah. I had to home tutors for that fall semester of I think it was my sophomore year of high school.
The first fall semester I was home tutored, tutors would come to my place. And when you're that age, it feels like an eternity to be out of school for that long. Yeah. Away from your friends. Yeah, away from my friends and I was also run down from the radiation. The radiation is real tricky. It makes you, and chemo too, I always say it makes you feel like 60 percent alive.[00:17:00]
You just are not yourself and there's no, really no upside to it. It was, it was good. And I was happy to have the opportunity to be home. I played a lot of video games, listened to a lot of music and that was it. And that's how I got through it. But I went back in January to school and I was still bald from chemotherapy.
So I wore a hat and that was enough of like a scarlet letter. Cause you couldn't wear hats in my school, but they allowed me too. So there was more than enough people who were like, Oh, that kid had cancer. Yeah, no, they somehow they knew or whatever. And and I was always like, as soon as my hair grew back, I was like, I'm not going to talk about it.
Just going to go on with my life. Did you end up in your twenties or something? Was there some blowback from that? Or did you just kind of keep going? Yeah. I mean, I worked on this a lot in therapy, but at the time I just really wanted to go away to college and have like a. the typical [00:18:00] college movie experience, just like go party, hang out, try and meet girls, you know what I mean?
And try and have fun and be normal really is what it was. Yeah. So I didn't really pay attention to it. And I took the medicine I had to take, I'd take a couple of pills a day and that was it. I feel like kids are so resilient that you can just keep going. Yeah. And you did, but at some cost mentally, right?
You're not dealing with it. You're not acknowledging that, Oh, I almost died or something like that. So it catches up with you. Eventually. Yeah. Well, I'm curious. What was it like to be faced with your mortality at 16 and then also have to face into it again at 40? And thinking about the differences between those two ages?
It's a pretty massive age gap and you change so much. And when you're 40, you had a wife and a career and it's a totally different phase of life. [00:19:00] There's something that happens in the in between, at least in my experience, of medical events that can make you forget that you're even near death. What's it like to have dealt with that at two such different phases of life?
When I was a teenager, I actually, I remember thinking when I was home from school, I was like, this is good that I had this experience because it did give me a lot of perspective. It really was like a shift in the way I saw things. During chemo, the chemo schedule was like three weeks. So the first week would be fine.
Second week, you'd really feel like crap because all the stuff from the first week would hit you in the second week and you would just be a blob. I would just sit at home and play video games and eat. And then the third week, toward the end of the third week, you had four or five good days where you could go out and you could hang out.
I would pack those days full of so much stuff, even if it was just going to like the ice cream place or going to the mech game [00:20:00] or going watch the mech game somewhere. So I really learned about seizing. The good, filling up the good and recognizing that you don't always have that. And so I think it made me a little bit less bratty as a teenager, when you're 16 going on 17, you really think you know a lot. Yeah, the most grown up anyone's ever been. Yeah, who's ever been this smart? Who's ever been as smart as a 17 year old? And I still think that people, the 17 year olds are tough. They think they know everything. That's the age that I put that at.
So in that way, it was very helpful for me. I got this perspective shift and I knew what was real. I also had the best support from my family. They just were, my mom, I think she stopped working during that time, just stay home and take care of me. And my dad was working and he had insurance through work and that was clutch, to say the least, right?
Yeah. It did suck for all the other stuff, overall mentally it wasn't the worst. [00:21:00] Yeah. As cancer goes, it was curable. So that's what I focused on all the time. But then when I was 40, like you said, completely different situation. And I was worried about My kids and my wife and trying to keep that all together and not die, but also not lose functions.
I need to do stuff with work. I need to see, I need to hear, and I didn't want to lose any of that. I was scared to death that I was going to wake up and not love music anymore. I was like, what if that happens? It would be terrible. And so once I got through the surgery, I started to, instead of being like, I want to forget all about this, I was like, I want to get better.
What do I have to do? PT and rehab at a facility and all this other stuff. I was into it. I bought right in because I knew it wasn't, it was different than when I was 16 and I could just like, Oh, we're done. I'm going to go to college. [00:22:00] Drink my head off. This is like, okay, I got to focus on getting better and you were off work for five months.
Yeah. And in that time you were just focusing on recovery and PT and yeah, the job is so all consuming that you can't do anything in addition to it outside of work. You can't have like serious commitments outside of work. So I had to go to rehab. I started in inpatient rehab in White Plains and then I was doing like outpatient treatment.
Yeah. Physical therapy at an outpatient place. And that was like three or four times a week. And then it was two and then it was one. But you couldn't, I couldn't have had to take meetings or look at anything during that time or be responsible for anything really. And I was so tired. Recovery was so exhausted.
I was like scared about how tired I was. Yeah, and I mean it probably did take all of your energy. you needed that energy to recover. That's it. And work was really accommodating. And they even offered to figure out a way for me to [00:23:00] work from home. And I was like, no, I don't want that responsibility. I don't want to think about it.
I don't want to have to feel bad if I'm not able to do stuff. And so I just, I actually had to take that time off fully. And I feel like you're such an integral part of where you work that you wouldn't It would have become more and more, like you might have had to do more. That's what I was afraid of too you give them an inch and then it's like, Oh, you can do this.
Oh, do you think you could do this? And it's hard to say, no, I have a terrible time saying no to people. I felt like I would have been ensnared. Mm hmm. Great word. But that's exactly what I would have felt. Yeah, I have trouble. Yeah, actually being sick has helped me the best excuse. Well, something we can both relate to is this correlation between being in a fast paced environment and a fast paced place like New York City and a fast paced industry like TV film industry.
And I know for me when I was forced [00:24:00] to slow down, I really didn't feel like I could because no one in my life was slowing down. Everyone around me kept going. Yeah. Yeah. And there's been a lot of conversation around this since the pandemic in general, but I'm curious how that being forced to slow down, being forced to stop working for five months, how did that play out in your own life?
I really liked being off from work, and it was because I wasn't in financial dire straits. I could afford it for lack of a better term. I just was sleeping a lot and my wife and family were so great and just taking care of me and all that. And so I didn't have a problem slowing down. And actually I think the pandemic helped that too.
Cause it's the first day of the pandemic when we left the city, I was like, great, it's all over now. I don't have to work ever again. You know, I was like, let's do it. Let's call it. It's all over. No. And then two days later or something, I got a phone call and they're like, Hey, we're going to try and do shows.
But yeah, so I, When I [00:25:00] got sick again, I was like, all right maybe I'm done now. Maybe now it's over. And it wasn't, but I didn't have trouble relaxing. I did worry about getting back to work and building up the stamina to get back because it's very fast and you have even in perfect health, it's exhausting.
Deadlines here and there. And then just the stress of every day. That's really what it is. The grind of every day is tough. I didn't want to rush to get back. But I knew I had to get back, right? I went back in January of 22, so last October, November, December, I was off from work and I knew I was going back in January.
So that to me was like, enjoy your time. It's like you're off, you're hanging out with the kids, you can do stuff now, you wanna go to the dentist, you wanna go upstate or whatever, go out, take photos, now's the time to do it because then you're going to go back and it's going to be work again.
So that was my thing. I had more of a concrete ending in sight, I think, than you did. Yeah. My doctor literally said to me, it's time to get back to [00:26:00] life. And I just wasn't even ready. And I thought he was an asshole for saying. I think he's an asshole for saying that. On the other hand, he had this young woman in front of him who was Uh, I didn't really want to get back to life, but I just wasn't, and so, yeah, so I kind of forced myself to go back.
And then what ended up happening is that I got sick again because I didn't pace myself. That's the hardest part. Pacing yourself is always going to be the hardest part, especially when you're working in a place where they will take full advantage. And if you have trouble saying no, you will be ensnared.
In that thing immediately, because especially back then it was harder for me to say no, and it is now because it was almost nine years ago, which is crazy. I would immediately started doing nine hour days, which was just too much. Have you found that you've. paced yourself differently since going back to work?[00:27:00]
Yeah, definitely. And one of the big side effects of all this was that I used to drink a lot socially, which is like a thing that the show, we all drank a lot. We were young and I had to stop drinking fully altogether because I was on this medication, this anti seizure medication, and so I can't drink. I currently still can't drink.
And that is a big game changer, because, at that point, sometimes when we were younger, we would push ourselves, we'd stay out late, we'd wake up early and go back to work and just pretend like everything was cool, and So getting that out of the way, it was like a huge help for me so that the workday ended when the workday ended, when you were done with your work and not four hours later.
And so that was a big shift and really to that's the thing, like a thing you do a few times a week. If you have to stop doing that. That changes everything. Everything from there is just rippling out from that point. And so that was very helpful. And now at work, I have to do a little bit [00:28:00] more breathing sometimes when I get stressed and overwhelmed and really try and calm myself down so that I don't
lose the momentum. You want to keep it going. You don't want to fully slow it down. You want to keep working going fast, but you have to pace yourself. And so I've gotten better at that for sure. But again, the drinking is the big thing. It does make such a difference. You can't drink either, right? Yeah. Did you used to?
Yeah. And now, it's just, I don't know. I would feel so horrible. The way I used to drink, I would just feel so horrible. Yeah. If I did now. Yeah. But I had to grieve that for a while. So I think I'm still in that process because socially, being sober at a wedding sucks. It's awful. Like I went to one wedding and I just watched all these people get drunk and dance around and it was like, okay, that's super, I'm happy that they're having fun.
I don't need to be here. I can go anywhere [00:29:00] else and not, I can lay in bed and watch TV. And be happier than being at a wedding. So it's funny because I can have a glass of wine, but I can't get drunk. Right. And which is a very good thing. But when I'm at a wedding, the first few years, I mean, I was 28 when it happened.
So I had so many weddings, the first five years of my recovery. And I remember going and I'd have my little glass of champagne and then I'm just feeling like, I don't want to be here. Now, as time has gone on, I fucking love weddings and I'll have my seltzer with bitters. I just drink that the whole time.
I'll just be up until it ends. Like I love it. I hope that happens for me too, because like sometimes social events, you just I don't know, what am I doing here? Yeah. Yeah. And also everyone else is drinking. It gets a little. Right. And I think, I can go out with my friends and they can drink whatever on a regular night, but at a wedding where the goal is to, get hammered or [00:30:00] whatever, it's a little, it's like, okay, I'm not here for that.
Yeah. And then try to have conversations with you while they're wasted. Yeah. It's really something. And I maintain that that's like the biggest functional, like daily shift. As a result of the meningioma that I'm sober, and that's a whole different thing. Yeah. And I mean, for me, it took me a while to let go of it.
And now I love it. Yeah. I really like being sober. I'm not there yet. Yeah. I hope to get there. Yeah. Especially when people are around you. Yeah. And it's a social thing and it's a work thing. And also I, social, I would love that. I would drink and, make an ass of myself and have fun. I always thought that that was a part of my identity.
Where it was like, I'm, Hey, I'm drunk and I'm hanging out and singing songs and stuff and everyone loves it. So when you lose that, you're like, okay, well, who am I now? I'm the sober person in the corner. Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:00] So you mentioned your wife and your kids. Yeah. What was it like for you to be a parent and also be sick?
Did you feel like you were in some way losing time with them? Yeah, I never told my kids about Hodgkin's disease because it was over. What am I going to tell them? Oh, when I was a teenager, I had this thing and scare them. There was no reason. Then I got sick with meningioma and it was like, well, this is what I was afraid of.
Them seeing me. In hospital beds, recovering weird scars. I really was very upset by that. I didn't want them to see me like that. And, in a way I gained time with them because I wasn't working and once I was mostly recovered, I was home for another two months and I got to spend more time with them.
So, that wasn't Really the worst, but the worst thing [00:32:00] was before I went in for surgery, I was, for lack of a better term, love bombing people, just writing them. Hey, I love you. In case anything happens, like I love being your friend and this and that. And I did that to like a bunch of people and I meant it all.
I couldn't do anything like that for my kids. I couldn't think about it. I couldn't really think about them, talk about them with my wife. Like it was too hard. Yeah. I just had so much fear for them, not for myself, but for them. I just was like scared to death. And so I tried to write some stuff. I wrote a letter to my wife and I put in there I just can't even think about them.
I've told them I love them and know that I've always loved them, but. I can't tell them that. I can't even fathom this. That was the worst part of it. Really, that was the worst part. Before surgery, thinking, oh man, if this is it, what's going to happen to my kids and family? It's so interesting to speak to you [00:33:00] because when I got sick, I had no, I had zero responsibilities.
When you were just saying that you would love bombing people, it's something that I hadn't thought about in so long. Yeah. Sending these voice notes and texting people, and everyone was so afraid I was going to die. I didn't actually think I was, but I was subconsciously thinking it, you'd be foolish not to think of it happening as an option.
Yeah. You have to be realistic. People die in surgery all the time. Of course. Even if it's not like a crazy surgery. There's a death there, too. Yeah, and also, I mean, I was in denial because everyone was like, you're going to die. You're dying. I'm like, I'm not dying. Having to face into that as a dad. Yeah.
And thinking about what your kids might do without you has got to be so heartbreaking. Yeah, it really was. When I was alone, I would just bawl, and just, there was no upside. It was all bad. When I was sick as a [00:34:00] kid, my mom and dad would just take care of me and that was it. And so now it was like I, was sick and then I made it out of the surgery and then my wife and I did a lot of recovery at home and so I was around them all, sick, better or worse.
It was a trial, I guess. It was a challenge. How did they deal with it? Uh, they were very good. They put on a happy face for a lot of it and knock on wood, it all worked. I'm sitting here with you and like I'm back and so really there's no trouble. We're talking hypothetical, which is fine, but I,
I think that they were in denial for sure. Because what are you going to do? You can't think about oh, is my dad going to die? Or he's probably going to die. And it's we'll be fine. Yeah, we'll be fine. Of course. Yeah. And we were telling them like, it's going to be okay. You got to do that. You can't say like, well, he might.
And then, when they, [00:35:00] took it out and it was fine. That was incredible. Cause I, like I said, I was super worried about changing, some element of my personality or brain not working or changing or whatever. And so I was happy that I was back and then, just had to go through the recovery of it.
Again, the duty really, like it comes back to the dutiful part of it. Did you, in the recovery, did you had your, PT, you had all the things that you've had to do. Is there anything like in my recovery, I tried to learn to code, which was this really ridiculous thing for me to try to do. It was just, I felt this pressure to do something.
Yeah, I did.
I don't know if I felt I did feel pressure because it just was like your home and if you're not stimulating your mind, what are you doing? And you're just kind of like laying there. So during the pandemic me and. John Haskell started a band [00:36:00] and blazordog. com and yes, I think you should, it's weird spelling too.
So I got to get it to you. But then we had started recording stuff during the pandemic and we had sent stuff back and forth. And then we had a couple of. meetups in person after in June of 21. And then when I got, after I was on recovering, I like really worked on that album. And so that we were able to release it in 22.
So that was what took up a lot of my time. And it was really good because it's stimulated. I can do it at home. I can sit at my desk. And that is what I did a lot of when I, Felt like I needed to do something. I also like to take pictures, so I would take photos and go out and take photos and work on them and stuff like that.
I didn't do anything else. I don't, I didn't feel the pressure to learn how to code. I gotta tell you that. I think writing an album is like, learning how to code on like JavaScript. Did you learn it? [00:37:00] Do you know how to do it? Oh, okay. I gotcha. I tried. I tried and failed. Did you also say something about watercoloring?
Yeah, I tried to do some watercoloring. I have a friend who is an art therapist who would come with her watercolors and do it with me. A ton of people gave me coloring books because it was at a time when those coloring books The adult coloring books? Yeah, it was like ornate. I got five of them from different people.
Yeah. I didn't really do anything with them. People kept being like, so how are you feeling your days? And I'd be like, Oh, I have to fill my days with something besides just trying to get through it, filling with watching TV and food really. That's part of it. I'm trying not to vomit. A lot of the time, you have many things in your creative life.
You're a director and an editor and a musician and a writer. And I'm curious as both a young person and now as an adult, how did your experience of illness [00:38:00] shape your creative life? I, part of the recovery during Hodgkin's disease was I just, for a lot of days, I sat and played Nintendo 64 and listened to music all day long.
And I still, when I listen to those songs, I can go back to that place. My neighbor, a friend of mine at the time, would buy me two CDs a week, and I would just listen to them. And it was all different stuff, classic rock from her era, like deep purple. And I would just listen to a ton of music. And really, that is my whole creative drive.
The thing that you draw inspiration from is just music. And I've always been like that. But that at that time, it really cemented this is what I love. I love music and I want to. play it and then it ended up being that I really liked putting visuals to music. And so that, that to me, even when I was, even after the [00:39:00] meningioma, I would just listen to music all the time and really get inspired by it too.
Cause it's just, you hear stuff that you like and you want to make and. This is a boring answer, right? No. It's really interesting. Music is the whole force for me. That is the purest form of expression that I relate to, that I get stuff from. And so that ended up being a huge thing because now when I direct stuff and it's a music video or it's a comedy music video, I just listen to it a hundred times and see what pops into my head and then I get that.
That's it. That's the bit, you think about it, go, okay, this song and this sound. Okay. Now. And so a big part of that was, and I always thought of it when I was listening to music as a kid, I always thought of it as research. I don't know why it was like, even pre everything, I was just like, Oh, I just want to know all the music.
Yeah. That's what I always [00:40:00] think about is that just being passionate about music took me very far. It really did. Cause that's the only thing it's been consistent even throughout the different jobs. It's just I really like music. You want to you want to. make it, you want to sing, you want to put images to it.
Like I'm there, I can help. I love that stuff. And that's really the whole thing. Real. That's the answer. It's like music was pretty much everything is still pretty much everything. What were you listening to? I'll say in 97, there were, there was, Two or three albums that I had on loop. It was the first two Ben Folds, five albums.
And classic I listened to them too much. And like I was saying, the, some of this, yeah, yeah. She's a break in, uh, you can clear that. Uh, But yeah, I listened, and I listened to that so much that I think my mom still knows the song because I just would sit in the living room and play [00:41:00] video games and have it on, which is still one of my favorite things to do is play video games with music on.
And at that point, too, I really got into Gershwin. I got into Rhapsody in Blue. That was the first time I ever heard that. And that was because of Ben Folds. He had one thing in his song where, so.
A rip off of that homage to Rhapsody in Blue, but then I also got into Metallica and I was into a lot of boy band stuff. So I didn't really wasn't into that. I'd been like a grunge kid, like Nirvana and Weezer. Weezer is my pinnacle, my number one, still love them. Even though it's not the same, but I still love them.
There was this band called the That Dog, which was like a sort of a sister band of Weezer and the Rentals. I listened to that album a zillion times. Okay, Computer came out that year. And it was just all this great music. 97 was sick. Yeah. I listened to all that stuff constantly all the time. [00:42:00] And then when I was, With meningioma, I was listening to everything.
I remember coming out of surgery. I had listened to a lot of, of Montreal, who I'd never really listened to that much before, but it was so fun and weird. And that was really like tickling my brain. And so I listened to a lot of that and it was just, I wasn't listening to a lot of Vampire Weekend that one year, I think Father of the Bride was the album that for me, you're reminding me that in my recovery, like music is so big for me and.
I, I definitely had headphones in the hospital. I definitely listened to music. And I remember as I was basically grieving the first five years after my surgery, because it just felt like such, such a grief to me. I would listen to music a lot and I would cry. I would do a lot of crying. But that's good.
And now I, the song, This is the Day by The The, I don't know if I do. [00:43:00] But it's, it's, uh, This really beautiful classic song from the and i'm obsessed. I have always been obsessed with it Interesting teenager and it came on I shuffled the other day And this week actually and I was I had listened to it.
I've listened to it so many over the years Yeah, I listened to it, I check in with it and I just remember the lyrics are very nostalgic and I remember being at a certain point And just couldn't, I couldn't not cry listening to the song. That's interesting. It's so nice. It was like, came on the other night and I was in my apartment and I just I was so joyful listening to it.
Do you have anything like that in your experience of like? I listened to a lot in 97, Eric Clapton Unplugged album. When I was doing Radiation, they would put on a CD. Yeah. So I. bring CDs with me and that was one of them. So I have a core memory. The first song is the best sign. Oh, it's so good. I can [00:44:00] listen to that song and be brought back right into the room where I was getting radiation.
Like precisely. There's those go to songs that will always make you emotional regardless. God Only Knows by the Beach Boys. That will always, and Do You Realize by the Flaming Lips. Like those songs, they're all just like, they're so good on their own. And so when you listen to them and you associate them with.
Your life or whatever. There's a couple of classical songs that I, every time I listen to them, I get emotional Sibelius, Allegro Molto from symphony number five. It's the third movement, I think. Beautiful. There's a really funky horn part at the end. And so I listened to that stuff and it really, Clair de Lune, amazing.
And I mean, that's like so basic, but yes, that's exactly what it's like. I think I first time I heard that it like came as like a MIDI file with Windows 95 or something. And I was like, Oh, I like this. So that's why I think it's basic. Thank God we have music to carry us through these. times and [00:45:00] absolutely intense moments.
Yeah. Thank God we have music period, but I know what you're saying. Like it's a companion. It's something you can take with you wherever you go. And it means different things at different times and the consistency. That's what I was really afraid that I would come out of this meningioma surgery and not like music anymore, which wasn't like a possibility.
I mean, I guess it was, no one said that it would be a possibility. I was like, pre afraid that that would be the thing that would go away. And it would ruin me. It would ruin my life. Even though it may not have, it would just be like such a loss. But, thank God. So, I speak to a lot of artists and creatives on the show, and I'm always curious about how illness and creativity weave together for people.
Do you feel that art needs to come from this, from your experience with illness?
Yeah. I think it will find its way out. [00:46:00] If you're fortunate enough to work in a field where you get to make stuff, write stuff or whatever, like after being sick at 16, I got a really dark side to my sense of humor. It was like, Oh, I get it. You might die if you do that. All those jokes, dark humor, black humor, gallows humor, that happens.
You know what I mean? There's no, I don't feel ever like I need to make art based on this experience. I do think that it comes out. In a way where you're just like, Oh, well, I think that because I thought this, and I, so that's where it lands for me, I think it'll find its way out no matter what.
Yeah. And you're constantly making things. Have you found that it's come out in some way in your work day to day? And also, have you found that you've had some sort of perspective shift on how you approach your work creatively? Good question. I
don't know if [00:47:00] I've found anything currently that I'm like, Oh, that's because I was sick. I don't, I maybe it's too soon. It's almost three years, but might still be too soon for that. For me to be able to look back on it. I think when I was sick when I was younger, that changed my perspective on everything.
And so that was like a big shift. More recently, I think it made me more appreciative of The opportunity that we get to make stuff every day, I still am, like, that I can go to work, make stuff, have, stimulate my brain, think about what this does and how this works, what would be funny.
I'm so much more appreciative of that than I ever was. Even the best jobs you get tired of. And so before I was sick, before COVID, I was over it, and I was like, okay, whatever you go make money and stuff. But afterward, I'm like, oh, this is a good opportunity. I'm very lucky to have this chance to make a bunch of stuff [00:48:00] and imbue it with whatever, thing.
And also, like you said, maybe you need more time to be able to look back. But when we're just living day to day, we're not like, carrying around what happened to us and thinking, Oh, this is going into the work. Yeah, exactly. I do think I need more time for a look back, because so much had changed for me since then, that it's hard to point to one thing and say, Oh, that's that.
When you were 16 and it happened and you had this whole perspective shift and it changed the way Was it something that pushed you into deciding to become an artist and be a creative because I feel like for some I'm not going to speak for everyone generally. I'll speak for myself. For me, it just brought everything into focus and I just was like, well, why wouldn't I do the creative things that we do?
Yeah. I, from that point on, I do [00:49:00] think there was a little bit of that, cramming into the good time. You have four days in the end of the week that are great. Fill that time with stuff. That you like. And so when I went to college, I majored in cinema, which is like, what is that? But it's just the opportunity to make stuff.
And I've been doing that ever since. Even in high school, I went to this high school because I had a TV station and I was able to work there and do stuff. And since then I've just been making stuff, videos. So I guess my real answer is Yes, it really does make things clearer, put stuff in focus, like we were talking about.
Well, speaking of putting stuff in focus, I had to get a lot less neurotic about certain things. And then, of course, those neuroses returned or became different over time, but I really did have to let go of a lot. Did you let go of certain [00:50:00] ideas, people, places, things?
So after the meningioma, cause when I was 16, it was like, I didn't really have anything to like, I didn't really have neuroses really yet. You have to let go of stuff and you have to realize, and this is a big thing that no one has any control and you just, resistance is futile and the more you can just radical acceptance and just take it all in and say, okay, this is what it is and this and that.
I think that's. The healthiest way fighting what's gonna happen is awful. It's pointless. It doesn't benefit anybody. And you just stress yourself out when you're like, Oh, I don't want it to be like that. Well, yeah, it is like that. And so that's really how I changed. Like I was saying, when you get diagnosed and you're like, I got to go have surgery.
Okay, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do this. You have to though. That's your responsibility as a patient, which is [00:51:00] strange and annoying, but like, it's your duty. You want to get better, you want to live, you have work to do here. Not fun, of course it's not fun, but you got to do it. My neuroses in that way was just like, just take it all in.
Just say yes and go and deal with it. Work from, bloom where you're planted kind of thing. These are the circumstances I have and let me do the best I can with this. My dad was like such a hard worker and I always joked with him that he raised good employees. Because me and my brother and sister just work like we just work all the time even when we're sick and we do all this and that and it's like that boomer culture of like you gotta go to work you no matter you party hard you gotta go in whatever you gotta pay the piper or something like that.
And yeah, like just you gotta wake up in the morning, you gotta get in there and if you're drunk or hungover, you gotta get up, go and this and that. I think a lot of that rubbed off on this too. I was like, okay, this is my job now. I gotta get better. And [00:52:00] when I'm 40, I can't work at this. The show I can work on recovery.
I have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And approaching it like a full time job. That's also how I approached my own recovery and it worked. Yeah. And you you've been in recovery for how long? Nine years? This year. I feel like the first five years it took me five years to recover and now I deal with stuff from time to time and I will for the rest of my life.
But now I feel so different than I did at first. Yeah. And I thank goodness. Yes. And I do think that there's like a grieving time and then you're just living. You're not in recovery. You're not still this liver transplant patient. You always are, but like, you just have to go with where you, like I'm saying, bloom where you're planted.
Deal with your circumstances and just live. Yeah, and be malleable for me. It's like, I have to be malleable because I will sometimes get bad blood work or [00:53:00] have to shift medication or I'll, I'll be at the behest of my doctors and the medical industry. I have to be a good employee. Yeah, I really think that that's a good way to look at it. I don't know if it's the healthiest way, but it works, if you put in the work, and if there's a lot of luck in this and if you're lucky and you put in the work, you can. I actually, I don't think it comes without resentment, like I definitely feel resentful of it sometimes.
Yeah. See, I don't think I allow myself to feel resentment, which I think is a big problem. Yeah, because I don't ever want to be mad that I was sick in any, either case. Even when I was a kid, I didn't want to be like, oh, why me? I was like, I knew that that was not a healthy way to think. And so I never did.
And, I wouldn't, I wouldn't think of it for weeks at a time. I was in college and I was having fun. And even the meningioma, I didn't, I'm like, Oh, why me? I was like so I don't allow myself to feel resentment. I think that's more of a me thing. Cause I don't like that feeling in general, like [00:54:00] it's a negative feeling and I don't like, I don't like negative feelings because I'm special.
For me, anger is hard for me. But unless I, like, scream into a pillow, I'm fine. Yeah, resentment does come out and especially like we were saying, losing that social part, I'm still mad about that. And so that is a real way that I feel resentment or a negative feeling about the whole thing.
But that's silly, right? That to me is like where it's like, come on, Chris. Yes, and I agree with you in that because I dealt with the exact same thing. I'm like, well, what am I, what am I so upset about? But I had to grieve it. Yeah. And then now I'm so grateful that I lost it. I'm on the way there. I definitely feel better that I don't drink.
And I always felt like garbage. And then as you get older, it gets worse. And so [00:55:00] I'm glad I don't drink anymore. I'm resentful that I. don't have these social fun times that I'm probably sanctifying in my head. Weren't that great? I'm romanticizing them and being like, oh, that was great. And I was like, yeah, it was kind of sucked too.
I mean, for me, I look back and I'm like, oh my God, that was such a nightmare. So I see. Yeah. I also come from a long line of alcoholics. Yeah. Right. Right. Proud tradition of alcoholism. Yeah. We're going to close out. What's one phrase or saying that you always come back to?
When we started treatment for chemotherapy, when I was 16, my dad would say, this too shall pass, said that all the time, constantly. And that's definitely in there. And it's good for those acute moments where you're like, I fucking hate this. You know what I mean? This blood draw, this too shall pass.
And that's good for that. So that's, That I have thought of a [00:56:00] bunch, but then there's this other one. It's so strange, but I love the show Rick and Morty. I know, I know that it's perceived as like a bro show, but it's not, I really love it. I do love it. And here I am. I love it. I love Rick and Morty. But there's a line in there that no one exists on purpose.
No one belongs anywhere. We're all gonna die. Come watch TV. That's what it is in the show. And that to me is very, you know, very grounding in a way. It's all random. No one knows anything. We're all just doing our best. Luckily, we have medical community to help us and keep us alive, but Outside of that, we got nothing.
No one makes it out alive? That's another one too, yeah. That's a good one. Do you have any sayings you come back to? Oh, I actually come back to this too shall pass. What else do I, I'm usually the one asking. Well, cause I, I answered already, right? So I [00:57:00] felt like I could ask you. What is one phrase that I go back to? I go back to this too shall pass. Never say never. That's pretty good. It's just something that we said in my family growing up, and it's because I tend to think in black and white, so it's like, Something good could be around the corner.
Yes.
Easy does it, which is the slogan from the 12 step program that I'm in. And it's just like, I tend to get so caught up in my head and it just reminds me. As you were saying that, I was thinking of two things. One is the phrase, run it out, which is like when you ground out in baseball and you're supposed to run it out, run all the way to first, even if you get thrown out, because maybe there's an error, maybe there's an overthrow and you can get to first.
And I think that is like a good mantra in general. Easy does it, is [00:58:00] what you said. I guess that was it. My mind has gone blank I can only think of all these slogans that I remember.
That's the other one I thought of one day at a time, which is basically just a take it, move on baby steps kind of thing. And I was like, yeah, good. One day at a time is a big one. And just living in the day for me, one day at a time.
And I grew up with that too. So that's ingrained. If you lived in a world that completely catered to your illness. What would that look like? Quicker MRIs. Open, open air MRIs for the brain. That's such a good idea. Yeah, and like , uh, stickless blood draws. Yeah. It would be, that would be huge.
That's such a good specific. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be huge. MRIs are terrible. And I always have to get them on the brain. You're in there and I used to have to take a Ativan or something, but now I don't, but that, so it's good because I'm not like drugged when I get out of there, but [00:59:00] you're in there for 25 minutes and just like, okay, I'm okay.
I'm okay. I'm okay. My head's not itchy. My shoulder's not itchy. I don't need to sneeze. I don't need to wiggle my nose. But other than that, I think I don't want, I wouldn't want it to be like catered toward me. Those things would be very helpful. Okay. But I wouldn't want it to be like specific to me, that doesn't seem, I wouldn't like that.
But what you're saying is it would be a benefit to everyone. Yes. Even if it's specific to you, it would be a benefit. Stickless blood draws would be fantastic. That is like my least favorite part. The most traumatic thing for me is when they can't get blood out of my arm. And I go into a rage. I am very resentful about that.
And then finally, what's one thing you do to keep yourself creative each day?
I listen to music every day for sure. Each day, every day for at least the commute. And [01:00:00] then in the morning when I'm getting ready and at night when I go to bed. So that's the most consistent one. But the other, that is the daily one. I also really try to take photos as much as possible. Just to have them in memories and stuff like that.
And that's a creative outlet for me. Music is the actual one. It's a good one. Very easy to do that. Do you take photos on a camera? Yeah, on a camera. I have a few cameras that I bring around, but I love taking pictures of the kids with the SLR, like a big, dumb camera. Everyone's like, why do you have that?
My phone does the same thing. Absolutely. Yeah. Take pictures on your phone. I take pictures on this camera. Great. I love it. Chris, it was such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. This was great. We can, I could keep talking, but I will let it end. This was so fun. Yeah.
That was our show, So, Life Wants You Dead. This episode was made with support from Awakening Healthcare. Encouraging [01:01:00] and supporting providers and patients to reconnect with their souls. Many thanks to Stephanie MoDavis and Ruby Shah. Our illustrations are by Ronaé Fagan. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, leave us a review, rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
You can find us on Instagram @ SoLifeWantsYouDead, where you can follow along for updates about the show. Thanks so much and see you next time.