Episodes
EP13 → Harshada Wagner On the Blessing in Illness, Existential Brokenness and His Art Practice
In this episode, Nora speaks to Harshada David Wagner, a master meditation instructor, author, artist, dad, and wisdom teacher, about being diagnosed with ulcerative colitis and having an ileostomy at 27 and how it has shaped his life, art, and teaching.
Harshada shares candidly about his initial denial and resistance to Western medicine, his experiences with both Eastern and Western medical approaches, and the significant impact of these experiences on his creative and spiritual endeavors.
The conversation delves into themes of illness, healing, and the interplay of various healing traditions, offering insights into how these challenges can ultimately foster resilience, spirituality, and creativity.
Website: www.davidhwagner.com
Instagram: @harshadawagner
TRANSCRIPT
Nora Logan: [00:00:00] This is So Life Wants You Dead, a show that explores the intersection of illness, disability, healing, and creativity. I had an emergency organ transplant in 2015, and despite the drama of the situation, it turned out that near death was fertile ground for my creative life. Now, all these years later, I can say that was what saved me.
That and a brand new liver. I'm Nora Logan, and this is a podcast on how looking at death Today my guest is Harshada David Wagner. Harshada is a master meditation instructor, author, artist, dad, and wisdom teacher with more than 25 years of teaching experience. Classically trained in the wisdom traditions of yoga, bhakti, vedanta, and tantra, his teachings come from his decades of working with people, helping them to learn to live more fulfilling, soul centered, purpose driven lives.[00:01:00]
On today's episode, we talk about his experience with alterative colitis, his initial denial and resistance to Western medicine, and the interplay between Western and Eastern medicine in approaching his care. He talks about how his life, art, and teaching have Have been shaped by his illness. The role grace plays in near death and the yogic view on illness.
The thing I love about speaking to Harshada about anything is that he approaches everything he does with both a sense of deep devotion and a wicked sense of humor. Here's the conversation. Welcome to the show Harshada. Thank you for being here.
Harshada Wagner: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Nora Logan: So this is a new experience for the show and for me because I usually interview people who have spoken publicly about their illness or have made art about it or both.
And in this instance, though you have written about it publicly, I really don't know [00:02:00] that much about how you came to be ill and what subsequently happened. I know you were 29 when you had a massive surgery, which saved your life, but beyond that, I don't know many details. Can you tell me about how you got sick and and also when and just a little bit of the background of it.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. Thank you Well, I must have been around 26 when I started having these gastrointestinal symptoms that weren't Sort of normal things like I had traveled to India. I did some my training in India, but it wasn't like that and I started basically like having like bloody stool and that would kind of come and go.
And sometimes it would get really bad, and then it would subside. And that lasted for a couple of years. [00:03:00] And also, I should just say, I don't think I've, like, told this story. I don't know. I haven't had to tell it. So, like, also, it's funny for me this is, like, a very fresh telling of it. Yeah.
Nora Logan: Well, I feel very honored that you're sharing.
Harshada Wagner: Usually I sort of, like, If I tell anything, I just sort of like jump to the big moments. So it's good to, it's good to think back. And then at some point around 27, 28, I had, I got sick enough that I, I got diagnosed with ulcerative colitis and different kinds, which is a form of Inflammatory bowel disease, or IBD, along with Crohn's disease, is the other really known one.
And it's something that kind of runs in my family. It seems like my maternal grandfather had something like that. [00:04:00] Both of my brothers have something like that. Both of my living brothers, I have one brother that that is, is dead, but never so bad that anybody ever had to be hospitalized. So I was hospitalized the first time, it would have been around 28, 27, 28, something like that.
And, you know, they, they managed it with medication, including steroids, and then it just kind of subsided. And you have to understand at this time, I was like living in an ashram. I was like a full time spiritual student and, you know, working in the ashram as a junior teacher, and both in India and upstate New York.
And I was heavily invested in. Eastern medicine, [00:05:00] alternative medicine, and I was very resistant to the idea of going to a hospital or being treated by a Western doctor, being on medication, and I was convinced that if I could just talk to the right person that would give me the right diet or the right diet.
Herbs of the right, whatever, spiritual adjustment or whatever it was, because no way do these doctors know what they're talking about. The doctors just said, you have this thing, ulcerative colitis. And they told me the first time I was hospitalized, honestly, you should probably have your colon removed.
And I was like, no fucking way. I was like, I would rather, I remember I said, I'd rather go to South America and like find a shaman to heal me rather than to let you cut my body. And I was like very vehement and very arrogant also. Anyway.
Nora Logan: And 27. [00:06:00] And 27. Yes. Yes. Being told that you need your colon basically cut out like at 27 is a huge shock to the system.
Yeah. Yeah.
Harshada Wagner: Absolutely. And I was like, newly engaged. I was, you know, like when I say that I was living in an ashram. It was kind of like I had my dream job. It was like, for my world, it was the equivalent of someone who, like, studied business and got an internship at, like, Goldman Sachs or something like that.
You know what I mean? I was on my way.
Nora Logan: Yeah. You were at the best of the best type of thing. Yeah.
Harshada Wagner: And I was like, you know, like this up and coming person in that world and, you know, had this cool fiance and who happened to be a doctor also. And all of a sudden, there's this huge interruption. [00:07:00] And at that point it went away, you know, it went into remission and I didn't have to continue taking medication as I remember.
And then it would flare up and come back. And the next time it came back, I was still in that organization, but I had gone to Oakland, California, to set up. Our guru was going to be traveling to Oakland and to the West Coast to be on tour. So I was doing advance work, and I got a horrible, resurgence of it.
And, you know, what it is like is it's like having bloody, painful diarrhea, painful, like in your belly, like unspeakably painful and a lot of bleeding. And it also creates a kind of, an insanity. [00:08:00] You know, when you're really sick anyway, you know, it affects not just your body, but your mind as well. And I think that when you're bleeding so much, that is also part of it.
But I was like in intense denial. You know, I did not want to be sick. I did not want to miss out on this life that I was setting up for myself. And I'll tell a story. It's pretty graphic, if that's okay. Yeah,
Nora Logan: that's okay.
Harshada Wagner: So our ashram there is in Oakland, which is the East Bay. So the Bay Area has the East Bay, which is like Oakland and then Berkeley and so on.
And then San Francisco is on the other side of the Bay. So, I had a gig for the ashram in San Francisco teaching, and I was so sick. But I did it anyway, and the only car that was available to use from like the ashram motor pool was a stick shift Volkswagen Jetta. [00:09:00] And I'd never really driven in San Francisco at all, and I hadn't driven stick shift that much, and if you've been to San Francisco, you know, the streets are very, very hilly, and I was so sick, and I kind of managed, and I got to the gig, and a couple of times while I was teaching in the gig, I had to go to the bathroom, and just like, hemorrhage blood into the toilet.
And I get back, you know, I'm done. I get back in the car. I managed to get through the hills again, and I go over the bridge, and I really have to, like, go to the toilet, but there's, like, no place to stop. So I'm trying to get back to the ashram. So I rush back to the ashram, park the car, Get into just like the lobby like the public lobby and there was like, you know public bathrooms there for war we had programs and I remember like I just got to the stall and before I could even like take my pants off.
[00:10:00] I just shit my pants, but it was just like blood. It was like a horror movie and almost passed out. I had to like hold the sides of the the stalls to keep from fainting. So that was the state I was in of. Both sickness, but also denial and I had I had a friend there. He was this older devotee who is a paramedic and kind of crazy and I was going to all I should also say During this time, I'm going to, like, I'm in the East Bay, so I'm going to, like, the best acupuncturists and herbalists, and they're telling me, you know, oh yes, you just have this slippery chi and, you know, you just take these herbs and you're going to be okay.
Nora Logan: You'll be fine. You'll
Harshada Wagner: be fine. Yeah. Just eat this and take these herbs and you'll be fine. I went to this other guy who's, like, a voodoo [00:11:00] chiropractor. You know how there are these, like, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Like these, they're like chiropractors. That's their qualification with them, they do all this other stuff.
And, and also I don't mean to like offend anyone's belief systems about alternative medicine. Of course. But I'm gonna like, I'm gonna throw some shade here. Go for it. Okay. So this is a guy who did like, his, his schtick was, and like everybody swore by him. Like he was just like the best guy, and he was like, 300 an hour, which.
In those days was like a lot of money didn't take insurance so on but like
Nora Logan: still a lot of money.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. Yes. You're having
Nora Logan: to see someone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. So I was going to see this guy at least weekly and he would do these like weird little adjustments and then he had this rack on his wall of all these empty vials.
That were supposed to be you know, how like homeopathic is like the essence of something. It's [00:12:00] just like the trace essence well, this was like the trace essence of homeopathy that the Point that you couldn't even see it with the human eye. They were just empty little bottles Mm hmm And he would hold the bottle in one hand and then like touch me and like do this like muscle testing thing on me And I wouldn't even have to take anything, it was just by him holding it in his hand, he was somehow transferring the, the medicine of the thing.
And he had put me on chlorophyll and told me that I had a milk allergy and all this, and he was just saying, you're definitely getting better. And by this point, I'm getting so skinny and so crazy too. And I had Decided that like I didn't want to take and they all of these people were saying don't take medication The doctors are giving you medication that's making you sicker.
So don't take steroids, especially because those [00:13:00] are heating and you have this heat disorder and also I was like, okay, I'm not taking any medication. I'm all in on this program, but I need to eat meat and. can't eat meat in the ashram. So this, this older paramedic fellow, he would let me come to his apartment and cook like chicken soup and all these things that in my mind, that's what I really needed.
Nora Logan: So you needed to eat, they were telling you, you needed to eat meat to heal.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. But I also just intuited that.
Nora Logan: Yeah.
Harshada Wagner: You know, anyway, so the, I don't even remember where I fainted. I fainted somewhere. Maybe it was at Pranava's house. That guy's name was Pranava. All I know is that Pranava rushed me to the ER.
And he was like this big, you know, bear of a guy. And I remember him just kind of like almost carrying me in and being like, somebody needs to see him right away. He's fainting. [00:14:00] You know, he's passing out. He's hemorrhaging blood. And they brought me in and they tested my hemoglobin. And hemoglobin is supposed to be, I, all these numbers might be wrong also.
By the way, but as I recall, I know that it was like half. So if like your hemoglobin is supposed to be like 14, mine was like 6. And I, they gave me like an immediate blood transfusion. Like I was bleeding to death. Wow. And admitted me immediately. That day I had seen, I had seen the voodoo chiropractor that morning.
And he like told me, Oh, you're, you're bleeding. You're going to be better. So on and so on. So they admitted me for that hospitalization and they threw all these different things at me. They didn't do surgery. They said that they probably should, and I absolutely refused.
And then it went into remission again on [00:15:00] medication. At some point I moved to New Zealand because I You know, basically, I was so sick, I couldn't really go back to the ashram, and I was getting married anyway. And when I was in New Zealand, I had another period of remission, and then a huge relapse. And I got so sick, I was like, concentration camp skinny.
And they did an emergency colectomy. So they removed my whole, uh, large intestine and gave me an ileostomy at that point. And I can tell you more about that in a second. About seven years later, they did another big surgery to kind of Like, make the ileostomy permanent and also take out the last chunk of my small intestine that they left in in case I wanted to do this other surgery that if you want me to, I can tell you about.
Nora Logan: But can you explain what an ileostomy is?
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. [00:16:00] Uh, and, and also I should just say ever since that surgery, I've been in, in, uh, Excellent health with like absolutely no issues whatsoever.
Nora Logan: That's great.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. So an ileostomy, ostomy means something is outside of your body and ile is short for ileum. So an ileostomy is where a part of your ileum comes outside of your body and then you're fitted with like a, a removable pouch that collects the digested food.
So instead of Going to the toilet normally, anally, the digested food only goes so far because it only goes through my small intestine and then comes into the ileostomy appliance.
Nora Logan: And that's, that's a stoma bag, right? That's what they refer to as a stoma
Harshada Wagner: bag? Yeah, the stoma is the part that comes out of the body.
It's the part of the ileum that kind of sticks out.
Nora Logan: Wow, a big, big story [00:17:00] that I've never heard before.
Harshada Wagner: I don't know if anybody's still listening at this point.
Nora Logan: Well, I'm struck really by that. I've had in my own experience, I had the The denial and I was very similar age to you as well and also very focused on my career didn't want anything to change and I had this I had people wanting to prescribe me herbs in the hospital I had healers coming in and that sort of thing.
And there came a point where it really it had to go to Western medicine. And mine was a very short period of time, but I think in the way you describe it in your story is a, it's a good point and an interesting one to think about because there is, and subsequently for me in my own recovery, I've had to, to find the balance and, and kind of take, take what I.
like and leave the [00:18:00] rest from Eastern medicine or different types of healers. I never went to a voodoo chiropractor, but that sort of thing. And then also deal with my own resentment sometimes that I have of Western medicine, but also really acknowledge how they saved my life.
Harshada Wagner: Absolutely.
Nora Logan: How was that for you?
That kind of balancing that?
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. And I mean, there were so many other healers and stuff that I didn't even mention in the short story, but there were a lot. I mean, when I was in the hospital, not the surgery time, but the other time in Berkeley, you know, and our gurus tour was there. And so like everyone was coming to see me, like everyone was coming trying to help me.
And I had people doing Reiki on me and, and so many things. And the final one that kind of like woke me up was these people came and they said, okay, well. You have parasites. And [00:19:00] I said, well, they checked me for parasites and they said, no, you can't detect these parasites. And I said, well, how do you know I had them?
And they had like muscle tested themself about my parasites or something. So they knew. I'm very skeptical about muscle. As soon as somebody starts doing muscle testing, I'm sorry. God bless you, muscle testers. But I have trauma, so. And they said, no, come to our clinic. We have a clinic in Tijuana. Because what we do is illegal in the U.
S. But come to our clinic. And first thing you need to do is have all your teeth removed. Yeah, because you have, because you have, you know, these bacteria in your teeth that are causing all this and if you don't do it, it's going to eventually give you cancer. And the guy had had all of his teeth out and like, show me that his teeth were dentures, young guy.
And then they do this whole regimen where they like wash your, they, you wash your mouth out with like a bleach solution and you wash your food and like hydrogen [00:20:00] peroxide and then they give you these electric shocks from a car battery. Nah, I shit you not. from car battery to, like, kill the parasites in your system.
Where
Nora Logan: did they attach it to? You hold,
Harshada Wagner: I don't know, I think you hold the, you hold the electrodes in your hand or something. And so when they told me that and they were just saying, yeah, there's parasites. And if you go to any restaurant, you're going to get parasites, any restaurant. And I was like, maybe you're right.
But if you're right, I want to be wrong, you know? Yeah. And, and I remember my, my doctor at the time, he just came and he just, he just sat down and he said, look, he said, you're a good person. This is not your fault. This is something in your DNA. I'm so glad I'm remembering this. And he said, you live your whole life trying to be a conscious [00:21:00] person.
This is not your fault. He's like, you're gonna, this is what you're going to do. You're going to take your medication, you're going to be better, and you're going to live your life. And I was like, ah, I got this like huge, Relief. I don't remember exactly what the question was, but it was about just like how I relate to Eastern medicine, that kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I found is that, yeah, Western medicine is like super limited. And they're also. Kind of honest about that. Whereas Eastern medicine is also very limited, but there's actually this kind of arrogance about it. The other thing is, is that Eastern medicine is almost always, at least here, practiced by entrepreneurs.
So you'll, if you go to a Western doctor and they don't find anything wrong with you, they're so happy to [00:22:00] send you away without treating you. You'll never go to an Eastern person and have them send you away and say, actually, you're fine. Drink more water. They'll be like, Oh no, you need to like come every week and get the acupuncture and a colonic.
And you know, I hear some eye drops. You could do all these things because they need the business. I'm not, I don't mean to be so cynical, but the other pieces with that is that most imbalanced and living in the modern world, all this stuff. stuff that Eastern Medicine offers does help us to find balance.
It does help us to like take care of ourselves in a much deeper way. But what else? Also, I should say that when I finally had the surgery, it was in New Zealand. I wasn't here and they have socialized medicine there and the doctors and the surgeons and everything were so much better and so great. And I mean, it was like kind of jankier.
You know, like I have a huge scar instead of like a laparoscopic thing, [00:23:00] but they were so much better. But what I will say to people out there, because I imagine you probably have people that are in these situations listening, is like every, almost every Eastern alternative person will also say that they can help you.
It's very rare that they'll say, I don't know what to do. So if they say, I can't help you, ask them, have you. helped someone with this specific thing before, as severe as I have it? That was the question that I didn't think to ask.
Nora Logan: That's such a good question. Yeah. Why would you think to ask that?
Yeah. In that moment.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. And I remember when I went into the hospital that time in Berkeley, I remember I called the the Chinese doctor guy and told him, you know, like I had to cancel an appointment or something. And he was like, well, I'm very sorry to hear that. Like, he was disappointed in me that I went to the hospital.
Like he, he like shamed me for [00:24:00] like giving it.
Nora Logan: Yeah. And
Harshada Wagner: going to the
Nora Logan: Yeah. And thank God for that doctor who gave you that relief. To tell you that it wasn't your fault because there is I think a lot it can happen That people get shamed for not doing enough They're not being quote unquote healthy enough when it's something that's in your DNA.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah
Nora Logan: Speaking of your surgery actually you wrote a piece about your experience of surgery last year and I was wondering
would you read it for us?
Harshada Wagner: Sure. It was July 11th in the year 2000. I just turned 29 and I was waking up in a hospital room. The night before, during the full moon eclipse of Guru Purnima, I had gone through a massive surgery to save my life. I was close to death before the surgery. Wasted, skinny, nearly bleeding to death from my gut.
The morning after the operation, [00:25:00] I was in a lot of pain. I barely weighed 120 pounds. I was stoned out of my mind on morphine and I was clear, so clear that the only thing real was grace. The night before, I had to undergo a big abdominal surgery, and in the process of shifting me from the operation theater to the recovery room, my epidermal came out.
So when I came out, that's the anesthetic. So when I came out of the general anesthetic in the middle of the night, I had no other pain relief. My whole belly had been cut open and stitched back again, from my sternum to my pubic bone. And that's it. The pain was indescribable. By the time I was awake the next day, I had been reborn.
The operation did save my life, so I was better in that regard. But there was something about that night of pain, there was something about coming so close to the brink, something about the [00:26:00] sacrifice of having the surgery, the scars and permanent change of my body, the defeat of my ego. I never wanted to have the surgery.
I thought I could cure my disease with yoga and Ayurveda alone. Something about going through all of that horror showed me what really mattered. And what mattered was my connection to Source. What mattered was my knowledge that I wasn't just the body and that what I truly was was the divine and imperishable.
And I was deeply good. I woke up so grateful to my guru and everything she had taught me. I had been to the other side and saw what was behind the veil.
Are you sure I wrote this? I don't remember. It's really much better than anything I've ever written. It's
Nora Logan: great. Thank you for reading it, unless it [00:27:00] was just someone impersonating you.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. Where did you find this?
Nora Logan: On your Instagram. Oh,
Harshada Wagner: wow.
Nora Logan: Yeah.
Harshada Wagner: Jeez.
Nora Logan: I can really identify with the pain that I experienced after surgery, having similar sleepless nights. And the experience of being in hospital really creating a sort of awakening for me. And I'm curious what was it about that night of pain And the seeing behind the veil that connected you more deeply to Source and to God.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah, thank you for that question.
Well, there's something about, Grace, and a moment of blessing like that, that is just, it's beyond our ability to comprehend or say what it was exactly.
Nora Logan: And that, and just to say, when I was actually putting that question together, I was like, I don't know if he's going to have words for [00:28:00] that.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah.
Nora Logan: Because I, I certainly don't don't always have words for it. And then I also have many words for it.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. I think that it was like what I said here. I mean, part of it was like going through my worst fears in many ways. Cause it's like, I never wanted to have that surgery. I never wanted to end up with an ileostomy. It was just horrifying thought to me, but I also didn't want to fail.
It felt like failing. So going through all of that, but then, you know, then you go into the surgery and you're like, okay, I accept I have to do this, but just like, let it, let it be okay. And then it got botched. I mean, I was writing about it very, politely here, but they fucked it up. And I was like screaming in the hospital room, like all night.
It was really, really like, if it was in the U S it would have been a huge lawsuit. And that's the other side of socialized medicine. That is like, [00:29:00] sorry, mate. Good luck to you. Yeah, good luck to you, exactly. Do you have a bike to get home? Yeah, but you know, it was all of that and I think it was just facing all of that and getting to the other side of it.
Yeah. That surgeon also had one of those angel messages. He was this guy, Professor Perry, and in that system, surgeons are called doctors. They're called professors. And Professor Perry said, look, write this year off. This is like some of the best advice for people that get surgery. He said, write this year off.
This year is just going to be about recovering from this. I don't even have any other hopes or, I don't remember how he said it, but he said, write this year off. And then after that, you can just live your life. But for this year, just write it off. And that was so good. As far as the advice went. [00:30:00]
Nora Logan: Did you adapt to that quickly?
Because you were 29 when this happened.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah, I think so. You know, I was like newly married. And, I mean, this was my Saturn return. I mean, the other thing I didn't put in here is that it was, exact the day of the first, the first part of my Saturn return was exact on the day of the surgery, which was also a full moon.
And it was also an eclipse. So it was like, and I think your surgery, your Saturn return too.
Nora Logan: Yeah. Right. Like smack bang right in the middle of my Saturn return. And it's so funny because I wasn't really aware of the Lionsgate thing back then. It wasn't sort of prolific as it seems to be now. But this year, my anniversary is on the 7th, the 6th, it's the 6th into the 7th of August.
And, and, you know, we just had the Lionsgate last week. [00:31:00] And my, I had a second surgery on the 12th. And I was really fucked up in that sort of period of time. And I remember also, actually, I think that there was like a full moon around that time too. Anyway. Very similar, when I was reading this, re reading it this week, preparing for this interview,
I couldn't believe the similarities, and the timing of it, and also, people saturn returns are a doozy, many times, but the, I guess in this incarnation of our bodies.
It's been, it was particularly, uh, violent in some ways.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. And physical and like direct and yeah. And then we were, our bodies were different. Yeah. After that.
Nora Logan: And having to figure out how to then sort of live a different type of existence.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah.
Nora Logan: So I want to shift because you're a visual [00:32:00] artist, writer, and spiritual teacher, and I'm curious about how that experience, not only being in the hospital, but having your body shift so radically, and also you were already teaching at that time, and you had already gone to art school, you already wanted to be an artist.
How did it, well, did it inform both your teaching and your art practice? And if it did, how did it?
Harshada Wagner: Yeah I mean, I think just the teaching in the sense that, you know, it was in that hospitalization, in New Zealand when I had the big first surgery that I really, I mean, I was already a teacher and I think that it was already my vocation, but I remember I got an even stronger vocation while I was there.
In New Zealand, they just have you like in these wards, you don't get your own room unless you're like gonna die. That's the only time you get your own room.
Nora Logan: That's how it is in the UK too.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. I remember I was like, I saw some, there was some, [00:33:00] single rooms. Is it possible to get them? They're like, no, absolutely not.
And the guy in the bed next to me died while I was there. And there's just a curtain between us and I had made friends with him and had this really profound experience of him leaving his body. Yeah. It was a powerful time of really getting clear about my vocation as a teacher.
As a visual artist, that came a little bit later, but you know, like so much of my visual art. has a kind of a quality to it of, like I do a lot of stitching, tearing the canvases and stitching them and sewing pieces on. And there definitely is a sort of like scarred, sewn up, you know, torn and mended was the name of one of my shows.
And that's the name of my art Instagram. So I think that there is something about that, that [00:34:00] like, it's like the idea of Kintsugi. pottery, you know, where the, the Japanese art form where they take broken pottery and then fix it with this lacquer that has gold dust in it. So you can see the golden cracks once it's fixed or boroboro, you know repairing clothing with patches over time.
And I mean, I, that's my artistic inspiration forever. And I'm sure I've thought of it before, but right now as I'm sitting here, I'm like, Oh yeah, that's totally what I am. I don't know how much I had thought about that before this moment, but it's like my body for sure.
Nora Logan: Yeah. I had read something you wrote about Kintsugi pottery and how it's infused with gold and glue, and I've always found the concept really extraordinary because I find that the Japanese really have a [00:35:00] talent for making delicate things so beautiful.
And I love just this real commitment to how beautiful broken things can be. And I see that in your art. I'm really taken by it. You make these really large scale pieces with stitching and, and you use a lot of reds and yellows and oranges. And my, my next question really was, Whether it was conscious for you because they do sort of looks some of the pieces like these Patchwork quilts.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah
Nora Logan: on canvas.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. Yeah, definitely It was conscious in the sense of it being related to kintsugi, but also boroboro the or boroboro That's the textile version of it where you see the like beautiful kimonos with the so much patchwork and that sort of thing. Yeah. I mean, that is definitely a conscious influence.
There's also, you wouldn't necessarily know this, but there's also, I use a lot of earth pigments [00:36:00] and consciously as, you know, so if you take something like clay or even take something like soil or rust, or even I use cow dung sometimes, like dried cow dung. It's like, these things are like blood of the earth.
They're like extracted from the earth and they're so full of like mineral. I mean, many paints are that too. Many pigments are that as well. But I'll just use like straight clay mixed with acrylic medium or, you know, cow dung or gold also, gold leaf. And, uh, That's part of it. And you're just bringing my attention now to just thinking about how it also does relate to the body and having been torn open and bled and all of this kind of thing.
Yeah, your
Nora Logan: own brokenness. Infusing it into something really beautiful.
Harshada Wagner: I thought of it more of like an existential spiritual kind of brokenness and repair. [00:37:00] But yeah, for sure. It applies to the physical thing too. The physical thing. That's the thing. I don't, in a way, I don't think about it that much. I just feel like I had to think about it so much during this period of my life.
And now I, Just don't even think about it too much because I don't have to. Yeah. Unless I have to like take my shirt off in front of people or that's a whole other thing.
Nora Logan: Yeah, I have that too. I had someone on the show recently where we talked about, yeah, just the, as it relates to disclosure and how wearing a bikini, for example, it's a choice that you have to make when you have things going on with your body.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah.
Nora Logan: And it can feel confronting. , how is it for you?
Harshada Wagner: Yeah, I go to spas a lot and, you know, sometimes ones that are naked spas and I always like, I don't care about people seeing my dick. [00:38:00] I don't, but like, the ileostomy pouch is just like, I do, I do feel very self conscious of it.
So I always have like a towel that I hold over it. you know, like that sort of thing. Um, yeah, I am, I am self conscious about it. And like, with lovers, it's always, it's like a big intimacy threshold, you know, at the point where it seems like that's going to have to be shown.
Nora Logan: Yeah.
So you have a piece called The Power of Forgiveness, which I feel like what you're just speaking about is It's a perfect segue into thinking about forgiving the body. And it's a painting that combines dyed canvas with raw painted canvas mixed with cotton paint and fabric. And in 2023, you wrote about the piece, forgiveness [00:39:00] has both repair and also the acceptance and embracing of that which cannot be repaired.
It is both harmonious reunions and melding, and also ones that clash and rub and require true compassion, learning, surrender, and unconditional acceptance. And looking at this piece, I was really thinking about forgiveness as it relates to our own bodies and that which cannot be repaired. And really just thinking what you were just saying about your stoma bag and, and how you move with it through the world.
How do you, how do you reckon with forgiving your own body when shame also was piled on you in your twenties in your own life and body?
Harshada Wagner: Hmm. That's a good question.
Just mostly through denial, I think. Just like avoidance and [00:40:00] denial, mostly. I mean, that's the truth. I love those for myself, too. Yeah. I mean, if I don't have to think about it, I just really don't. And, and then whenever I am confronted with it or do have to think about it, I just immediately try to get to a different topic in my in my mind, I think.
Nora Logan: Mm hmm. Like if someone brings it up, or if, yeah.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah, it was interesting. I had some body work done the other day, and that's a moment where a lot of times, I'll just tell a new body worker, hey, you know, I have this thing. Don't worry about it. I'm fine. But just so that there isn't that moment where you flip over and they're like, whoa.
And this particular body worker, not only was cool with it, but she actually worked on my abdomen, which is unusual for body workers, my experience anyway. And she really worked all around where the ostomy appliances and, like, worked [00:41:00] into my scar and everything, too. And it was really beautiful. And it felt like, it felt so healing and so loving.
And I really needed that and I haven't really had much of that
Nora Logan: Yeah, I've only had it a couple of times that people I want to say that they've been brave enough to, to go into my scar and really touch it because I don't know how much training body workers necessarily have with, with dealing with scars.
So I'm sure it can be scary for them to touch. But when they have, it's, there's so much held there, obviously. So. I'm so happy you had that experience.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah. I had this other cool thing happen a couple weeks ago where Adriana, that's, that's my partner, and I, we did this fire ceremony online, and the fire was very hot, and so I took my shirt off, and as I was, I think I was just sitting very close to the fire, and the [00:42:00] fire was so hot that I got burned, like my, my skin got burned, my whole, kind of chest and belly was red.
But my scar, I guess because the skin was different or something, it actually blistered all the way along the scar that was exposed. It was fully blistered, like second degree burn. And, and then it healed and the scar almost completely went away. It's like almost gone. Whoa. Where that happened. Before it was red and now it's like not at all.
Nora Logan: Whoa.
Harshada Wagner: So it's like weird, almost like minor miracle status.
Nora Logan: Yeah. Wow.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah.
Nora Logan: Very mystical.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah.
Nora Logan: You're also a dad. You have two kids. And I'm curious If there's been an experience for you of how you parent having had the experience of near death, but also having a stoma bag and moving through the world in the way that you do, whether it's in being so [00:43:00] close to death has informed how you parent, but also has it created any limitations for you as a parent?
Harshada Wagner: No, not too much. I mean, like the physical aspect of it, it's, it's not, I've been living with it for so long. It's not a big deal. Sometimes I think it must be weird. Maybe it's weird for them, but they don't have any other dad to compare it to. So, but the, the other piece of it that you said, yeah, I mean, so many of the blessings in my life, because there was a period
where it's like you get to that point and it's not just that you're sick, but you just feel like maybe your life is over. Or like it's never going to be good again. You know how you have like, people have this sense of false permanence when they're in pain. It's like the pain There's an illusion that it goes on forever, and I'll oftentimes just sort of try to wake up in a moment and be like, look at you, like you didn't even think that you were going to survive.
Or [00:44:00] like, look at this, you have a family, look at these beautiful kids. And so in that sense, for sure.
Nora Logan: It's really fun to speak to you about this because of how long it's been since you had your experience of illness and thinking about not only my own life, but I imagine my listeners lives who, who knows what What phase of the, their own illness they might be on, whether they're ill or not, and to have it kind of so far in the rear view and understand that in those deep moments of pain that you really don't see any, have any conception of how it could be different.
And that it does change. Like for myself, I just celebrated nine years of my transplant and I, I couldn't have imagined how different my life would be. It didn't feel like it would ever change. Um, and I think it's [00:45:00] just such a, it's so good to have examples of continuing to live when you've had such immense pain and there's just, There is so much immense pain in the world no matter who you are.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah,
Nora Logan: but it's it's fun to speak to you about how How different things have gotten for you.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah Yeah, for sure and so grateful and it's you know Whatever the moment is that someone is living through. I mean, it just sounds like such a trite thing to say, but tomorrow will bring something different and if not tomorrow, then the day after tomorrow or the year after this one or, you know, the important thing I think is when you're faced with some kind of a big limitation, especially like a big physical challenge, like an illness or a surgery or an amputation [00:46:00] or a paralysis, It really forces you to consider what's important to you.
And it's like, what is the bottom line that you have to get out of this life? Even if you're, you know, sometimes the, the limitation is in time. People have a diagnosis where they just don't have much time and it forces us to think about, you know, what is really important and, and also.
In contrast, what is not?
Nora Logan: Did you have to grieve who you were? Did you go through a process of grief around that?
Harshada Wagner: Very quickly. It was very short in my case around the surgery, but I've had that experience that you're asking many times over about other things. about, you know, because I've had like so many in this one lifetime, so many really different [00:47:00] incarnations in, in grieving for sure.
Nora Logan: I was also curious because you were, you were also already sober at the time you got sick and I was, I was curious if there was any part of you that kind of felt hard done by for you, like, did this thing, you got sober, and then you had this really intense physical illness.
Harshada Wagner: No, no, no, because the thing is, it's like when somebody has to get, I was just laughing because I was just thinking, damn, I have a lot of stuff.
So many things. It makes me feel like I'm very unselfconscious, and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but, I don't remember the things that I've written after I write them. I don't remember, like, even that painting, that painting is as big as a building. And I just didn't even remember that I'd even made it until you wrote, until you told me that thing.
And I also have a guided meditation called the Power of [00:48:00] Forgiveness. So when you said you made the Power of Forgiveness, I didn't, I wasn't sure what you were talking about until you read that thing.
Nora Logan: And anyway, And I, his paintings are massive. We'll put them, I'll put them up on the website so people can see.
They really are these. It's mammoth creations, so, and it's, it's kind of shocking to me that you don't remember making it. It's true.
Harshada Wagner: It's like, it's like you're a visual artist, and I'm like, oh, yeah, it's like, oh, you're sober. Oh, wow. Like, that's cool. I am sober. I was sober. But what I was going to say is you asked me, you know, if I felt like, oh, I got sober, and then that's not fair because I got sober and now I'm having this.
But when somebody has to get sober. And like me, I have so much self hatred and unworthiness that I just already feel like I deserve every bad thing. You know what I mean? So it's like nothing, the challenge, I mean, I've done a lot of work, so it's not like this anymore. But especially in those days, it's like the challenge is like [00:49:00] some big blessing comes and it's like being able to accept that I'm worthy of that blessing.
But some cursed thing or some calamity, it's just like, Oh, of course this is going to happen to me because I'm a calamity person. You know what I mean? It wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't like that. Yeah.
Nora Logan: Yeah.
So you're a spiritual teacher in addition to all these other things. Oh my god, that's another thing. And you teach in the tantric tradition. And I'm curious to know what you know about the yogic view and the tantric view of illness.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah, God, thank you for asking that. Well, you should also say to just like to say that I teach in the tantric tradition.
It's not in the sort of neo tantric sacred sex tradition because sometimes that's what I teach in the Mahayoga tradition that is more about consciousness and evolution of [00:50:00] consciousness and inner freedom and that kind of thing. And, you know, and when you say yoga also, yoga can get really wrapped up into that racket
of ableism. Well, if you just do the right yoga and eat the right things, then you'll never be touched by disease. And I mean, there are even things in the scriptures that say that. It's just like total bullshit and very, very harmful actually. And not helpful at all when your 25 year old yoga teacher tells you that oh, yeah Well, you can just cure your arthritis by doing downward facing dog You're like 65 and been working for the post office for 30 years
Nora Logan: Yeah, just push through that downward dog
Harshada Wagner: Change your attitude.
Yeah so There are really great Um, things that come into ayurveda and come into some of the Hatha yoga traditions, like the physical [00:51:00] practices about how to work with your life force and how to keep yourself healthy and more balanced for sure. And it's really good for your body if you do it well with good alignment.
However, in the actual maha yoga teachings, I think more of just like the teachings about karma, that there's an understanding that when we take this birth, we take with us what are called parabdha karma, which are these inevitable things that we're going to experience in this lifetime. And that the yoga.
teaching or the yoga practice is not about avoiding those karmas from happening, but it's rather about fortifying yourself with wisdom. And connectedness to spirit to be able to weather those parabdha karma. Um, just as a geek out a tiny bit. So there's three kinds of karma. There's sañcitta karma. That's like all of your karmas from all of your past lives.
Let's say they're [00:52:00] all like stored. Mm hmm.
And then when you're going to take a birth, you have to have some karmas. You have to have a body and a family and be born somewhere and have a general timeline for your life and like major things, maybe major illnesses, maybe, you know, a car accident. cause of death, maybe a time of death, and all these things.
You have to have those to be born. So those are called prabdha karmas, like destiny. They are going to happen. And then as those, you're alive and you're living through your prabdha karmas, the way that you react to them creates the third kind of karma which is called kriyaman karma. And so what the maha yoga teachings really have to offer is like how to react to the things that are arising in our karma today in the best way.
in the [00:53:00] wisest way, in a way that doesn't then create more ripples of suffering, but rather can take them and turn them into fodder for our process of getting free. Or take us in a direction where we're going to help others or serve others. It's a tough teaching, it's a lot easier to think, well, if I just, you know, do these practices every day, I won't ever get sick.
That's a lot easier thing to believe. But I think that this other thing is really, it's what the teachings really have to offer about this.
Nora Logan: Yeah. When I was preparing for this, I also read your interview that you did with Ram Dass in 2005, who had a lot of challenges with his body and he left his body in 2019, but he taught a lot on this very teaching in his own way, also just [00:54:00] by virtue of being in the body that he was in.
And in that interview, he, he was talking about really just being in one's body at any given moment. And as you were just explaining that, it's such a powerful and beautiful teaching. And I think it's, it's true for many people who go through trials with their physical body that they then turn to service and want to help others in similar positions.
And it's also not true for people as well as with anything.
Yeah.
Nora Logan: But what would you say to someone who's really struggling with that in this moment and is like fuck that I don't feel the move to be of service I I don't feel like I can react even because i'm stuck in it at this moment in time
Harshada Wagner: Yeah Well, it's a grace thing, I mean, it's a thing where like [00:55:00] when that response comes, it is actually an act of grace. And it's not something that you can force. But also, it's like to really take time. You know, sometimes you'll hear something like this, and then you feel this pressure that you have to do something right now.
But there's just not a time for it. There's a time where you're just fucked, and you can't you can't skip that part by just jumping into, well, I'm going to, you know, now serve everyone,
nowadays there's a pressure sometimes, especially people that are teachers or coaches or in this world. Where they have to very quickly turn whatever their limitation is into part of their branding, you know, or like someone will be an addict, like an addict yoga teacher, [00:56:00] and then they get sober and they are sober for three months.
And now they're teaching about yoga for sobriety. You know what I mean? And you know, not only is that not going to be a great offering, but they're also shortchanging themselves. I mean, that's just a thing for spiritual teachers in general. Nowadays, people want to, they don't want to have a job, they want to, They want to just do what they love and so they go to a weekend workshop and they discover something and then they decide to just be like a knowledge entrepreneur in that subject without spending the 10, 000 hours immersed in it.
Nora Logan: Yeah. But anyway. The time, the time takes time.
Harshada Wagner: It takes time. Yeah. And especially stuff with the body and healing and you just don't know. You don't know until you know. And that principle is there of service but you can't, you can't rush [00:57:00] it. Sometimes you just gotta be sick. Sometimes you just gotta be recovering.
Nora Logan: Yeah, thank you for that. So we're coming to a close and we have three questions that we always ask our guests. If you lived in a world that completely catered to your illness and to having a stoma bag, what would that look like?
Harshada Wagner: I don't know. Maybe like, like, Waste high toilets.
I like that.
Nora Logan: What an image, okay. We'll take it on board. And then what's one phrase or saying that you always come back to? I would imagine you have many.
Harshada Wagner: I think it's something in the field of thy will be done. [00:58:00] Something in that. And that, something related to that. Yeah.
Nora Logan: And then what's one thing that you do every day to keep yourself creative?
Harshada Wagner: I think, you know, I
have to say my spiritual practice, but specifically,, my spiritual practice is about, you know, having a goal of being free. And so whether I'm meditating or doing something else, it's, it's like this check in of like how free am I right now? And what's, how am I stuck? And then, you know, if I can, to do a little practice, or a lot of practice, to get unstuck, I would say.
Nora Logan: Hmm. That's such a good one.
Harshada Wagner: And sometimes that's meditation, sometimes that's dancing, sometimes that's talking to an [00:59:00] important person. So many different things.
Nora Logan: It's funny how many people say dancing. It's, I love it. A lot of people say it.
Harshada Wagner: Yeah.
Nora Logan: Well, thank you so much for being here, Harshada. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you.
Thank you for taking the time. Thank
Harshada Wagner: you. This is fun. It brought me into a lot of areas that I haven't thought about in some time. Thank you. Keep up the good work. This is really amazing work that you're doing.
Nora Logan: Thank you. That was our show, So Life Wants You Dead. This episode was made with support from Awakening Healthcare, encouraging and supporting providers and patients to reconnect with their souls.
Many thanks to Stephanie MoDavis and Ruby Shah. Our illustrations are by Renee Fagan. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, leave us a review, rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at So Life Wants You Dead. where you can follow along for updates about the show.
Thanks so much, and see you next [01:00:00] time.