Episodes
EP14 → Ashley Eakin on Filmmaking, Representation and Creative Triumphs
In this episode. Nora speaks to writer and director Ashley Eakin. Ashley has directed projects for Disney+, Apple TV+ and Netflix. Her AFI Directing Workshop for Women short film Single, won the 2020 SXSW Special Jury Recognition Award and is being developed into a TV show with FX. Eakin discusses her experiences growing up with Maffucci syndrome, a rare bone disease, and how it has influenced her career in filmmaking. They talk about overcoming internalized ableism, the need for authentic representation of disabled people in media, and the importance of uplifting disabled creatives.
Website: www.ashleyeakin.com
Instagram: @asheakin
TRANSCRIPT
Nora Logan: [00:00:00] This is So Life Wants You Dead, a show that explores the intersection of illness, disability, healing, and creativity. I had an emergency organ transplant in 2015, and despite the drama of the situation, it turned out that near death was fertile ground for my creative life. Now, all these years later, I can say that was what saved me.
That and a brand new liver. I'm Nora Logan, and this is a podcast on how looking at death On today's episode, our guest is Ashley Eakin. Ashley is a writer and director who has directed projects for Disney Apple TV, and Netflix. Her short film, Single, won the 2020 South by Southwest Special Jury Recognition Award and is being developed into a TV show with FX.
Prior to working on her own content, Ashley was the assistant to John M. [00:01:00] Chu and worked on his critically acclaimed film Crazy Rich Asians. Having over 14 years of experience in the TV and film industry, Ashley is passionate about diversifying the narrative of how disabled people are portrayed in media.
She's also a founding member of the DGA's newly established and historic disability committee. In this conversation, we talk about growing up with a rare bone disease and how it shaped Ashley's identity and career as a filmmaker, the challenges of navigating a world that often misunderstands disability, her desire to create authentic representation in media, and the importance of uplifting other disabled creatives.
Here's the conversation.
Welcome to So Life Wants You Dead, Ashley. Thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for having me. So I want to get straight into it. So you were born with a rare bone disease called Olliers and also Maffucci syndrome. And I was [00:02:00] surprised to learn that there are only 200 documented cases of it in the world.
And I was wondering if you can just tell us a bit about your experience of growing up with it, and, and how it was for you and also how it is now.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah growing up with, a rare bone disease has definitely been a journey. And you know, I say Olliers and Maffucci syndrome, but it's actually just Maffucci syndrome, but it's such a rare disease that like a lot of people are first diagnosed with Olliers.
And then if you get, uh, some other symptoms, then it turns into Maffucci's, but it's actually like two completely separate diagnoses. I mean, for my whole life, I've been like, Oh, I have Olliers disease. And then later on, actually, just like last year, I used to say both. But last year, I actually found out that it's two separate diagnoses, which was, Kind of a whole journey in and of itself where you're like my whole life I thought I had this thing and now it's actually both or [00:03:00] no, it's actually not both It's just this other one. But yeah growing up with something rare that not a lot of people or even doctors knew about was definitely challenging You know, I would go into Doctors offices and I've seen doctors googling my disease on a computer like the mirror behind them and you're like, oh no This isn't good that I know more than they do.
And so most of my life. I was really ashamed to have a physical disability and and hid it a lot, I I feel it's probably you know Consciously remembering when it shifted from feeling ashamed about it Maybe is like when school started, you know first second grade because When you're a kid you just kind of accept what you're given and you're like, all right this is my body and I'm having surgeries ever since you know, the age of three and But when you get to school I think that's really when you start to realize that you're different than other people and kids will ask questions and kids will, make fun of you, or, you know, I didn't grow up with like a ton of bullying, [00:04:00] but there was definitely some people that would, I had a surgery once.
So during recess, I would have to sit on the bench and my mom bought me all these books and games just to kind of like, You know, entertain myself while everyone else is playing and this kid will come by and sit next to me and tell me I was a freak and all this stuff. But it was like the one bullying really incident growing up that you kind of find out later as you get older and you see this person age, you're like, Oh, they were actually like a huge outcast and didn't have friends.
And sometimes the bullies were bullied themselves. And so I don't know. A lot of my life it was complicated because disability was such a complicated word for me because growing up, in the eighties, nineties, it was usually like, if someone was a wheelchair user, then that meant they were disabled, you know?
And so I, my mom really, and my family was really like, you're not disabled. Like you're good. We're going to try [00:05:00] and have you have a childhood like anyone else, and so that was good, but it also created a complex where I wanted to run away from that label of disability. You know, in my whole life, I'd be like, I'm not disabled, like, no, that's not a part of who I am.
And then as I started to, you know, get older and people would place the disabled label on me, I'd be very offended. And then I had to do a big kind of examination of, of myself, of why am I offended by that? Where are these ideas coming from? Um, am I? Embarrassed to be disabled. What do I think of the disability community?
And I realized that I had so much internalized ableism. Like I thought, you know, being a wheelchair user was, was terrible. And you did, I didn't even really have friends who were wheelchair users. It was like, I just tried to stay as far away from it as I could. And, you know, having to unpack that as an adult has been really fascinating.
And now embedding myself in the disability community and realizing that. My bias is actually what a lot of the general population has against [00:06:00] disability, and I'm almost, like, so disconnected from it now because I so love the disability community and don't even think about, like, assisted devices or, just all these things that I used to be like, how do I interact with this person? It's completely gone away, but I still am close to that idea that this is how a lot of society thinks of disabled people, you know, and so it's been, it's been an interesting journey and kind of like realizing that, unpacking it and then being able to like fully embrace my identity and who I am and realize that like, This is a very rare disease.
There's not a lot of people that have it, you know, and so people who do have it need role models who fully embrace themselves and love themselves. And, you know, it's, it's been a whole journey.
Nora Logan: Yeah, it's, I, I became disabled when I was 28 years old, which I've talked about a lot on my show and having to come to this, what you were just talking about.
This really deeply embedded [00:07:00] internalized ableism within myself and realizing how I saw the disabled community for the first part of my life and then, and then dealing with a disability and seeing that ableism reflected and how other people treated me and also how I treated myself. And it, it took me many years to even say the words disability in relation to myself and something that.
I picked up in what you just said is, is this kind of like. not knowing how to speak to people about it. This, that the general society has it makes people so uncomfortable, not knowing how to speak to people, disabled people in general, and about it is a really, is, is something that I, I find, Such a, an important thing to, to focus on in my own work.
And I see so much of in your work too. It's you, you really, it's clear that you're, you're changing the conversation in a way and how, how disabled people interface with the world. [00:08:00]
Ashley Eakin: Yeah, absolutely. I think every marginalized community has kind of dealt with this. Of society being like, I don't know how to act in front of the black community or the Asian, you know, like it's happened before our community is so unique because it doesn't discriminate.
Anyone can join at any time. People do come into our community halfway through their life, you know, like yourself. And I think it's definitely something that I came to. Because, you know, I'm, I'm a writer director. I'm a filmmaker. I was an assistant a lot of my career for like eight years, assisting different like producers and writers and directors.
And I ended up working for John Chu, who did Crazy Rich Asians. And when I finished working for him in the film, had done some like community screenings, people were writing him letters that were like, my whole life I've been so ashamed of my identity and I didn't want to [00:09:00] embrace that I'm Chinese American or, you know, whatever.
And they were like, but this movie gave me a nuanced depiction of. Someone who is Asian, like it wasn't the nerdy Asian guy or the sexualized Asian female. It was very like, there were hot Asian guys, you know, she was the Asian female was like a professor. And there was just this really fleshed out character portrayal.
And it made me realize that Where, what is the portrayal of disabled people in media? You know, when you start looking, you're like, Oh, it's very inspirational. It's very like they overcame their disability or disabled people are used as the villain. Or, you know, when you start to really unpack how we've seen disability on screen, I was like, Wait a second.
My shame is probably because I've been excluded from culture and where do I fit into this world? And so that's really what, um, was kind of that [00:10:00] spark for me of, you know, and going through kind of an identity revolution at the same time of like, What does it mean to be a role model? Why am I hiding my body on Instagram all the time?
Why am I not showing these parts of myself to the world? And that younger people needed to see that because I desperately needed to see that. Like, I could not imagine my future when I was younger. I was terrified of every new milestone in life. Cause I'm like, well, then all my friends are going to be getting married.
Like, will I ever get married? Or like, you know, it was just, everything was so much fear and I still pushed ahead and, you know, had a great time at all these. Stages of life that I've been in, but it really showed me that there is a need for us to see ourselves represented in a nuanced way and not just like an inspirational, nice character, you know?
And so I love writing stuff that's really complex and disabled people as human beings, because that's what we all are. And it's been really fulfilling to like have people send me [00:11:00] messages now even of just like shorts that I've made being like, Oh my gosh, like I resonate with this so much, and that's really what drives me.
This industry is, you know, very hard and there's just a lot you have to fight against and I have this mission and I think that's what pushes me forward of just continuing this work. So,
Nora Logan: so as you just said, you're, you're a filmmaker and a writer and a director and you've said. I started having these inklings of, I think I want to direct, but I was born with a rare bone, but I was born, but, but I was born with a rare bone disease and I'm smaller, I'm a woman.
And at this time I didn't see someone like myself directing. So it was really scary to put out there that I wanted to do it. So you spoke to that a little bit just now, but what was it that gave you that push to start directing?
Ashley Eakin: Yeah, you know, I think being an assistant, I got to, it exposed me to being on set.
Being on these big studio budgets. [00:12:00] I was in pitch meetings. I was in on studio lots. I really got to immerse myself in the world. And I think that made it feel a little more attainable, you know, like here I am. In this world, I can maybe do this, you know, and seeing yourself represented, even if I don't see someone exactly with my body represented, you know, as a writer director, I was seeing a lot more women.
I was getting to know women. I was going to a lot of directors, close ups with film independent seeing like Smaller women directing and I'm like, Oh, like they're the director. That's amazing. Cause usually my mind growing up was always men and for some reason, tall men, even though like Spielberg and Scorsese are not tall, you know, but it, for some reason it felt like this person that was yelling on set, which is just not my personality.
And then when you actually are directing, you're like. Oh no, that's the first AD. That's not, you know, that's not even your job is to like, tell everyone what to do in that [00:13:00] sense of like, corralling people. And so, I think it was really trying at first, is like, everyone told me, if you want to direct, like, go make something.
Even if you make it for like, no money, just have one location. So I wrote a short and made it for like, 700, got a small crew together. People are working for like, you know, 100 a day or something really, really cheap. And I loved the process. And like, I actually had a filmmaker that I was an intern on one of his movies like a decade ago.
And this was probably five years prior to me directing my first short. And he saw that I did this and he said, Hey, you should come into my office and we should chat about this. Like if you want to be a director and he. Was the first person who really sat me down and was like you should do this like you have a knack for storytelling You show interesting frames, you know, your choices are really interesting and honestly you need that in this industry You [00:14:00] need someone to sit you down and go you have something interesting keep going and that really I feel is what pushed me into being like I am going to do this and it was scary and took me, I think like four more years to direct another short, cause I wanted to save up money and, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to know what it was like to actually work for a director.
Cause I hadn't, and I was doing all these other assistant jobs for producers and in a writer's office and just all these different things. And I'm like, what is a director? Actually do. How do they get hired to, you know, direct a movie? What is the pitching process like? And I, I learned everything about that by working for John Chu, you know, and I think that experience combined with that kind of push from the other director of going, you should do this was like, once I quit working for John, I was like, I'm just going to go.
You know, dive into this head first and see what happens. And, and I, you know, what a really significant thing that also pushed me into continuing is getting into the AFI directing workshop for [00:15:00] women. That was a huge, you know, boat of confidence because they only choose eight women a year and 400 applications or something.
So that was like, Oh, out of everyone, people are saying you have something, keep going. And that's kind of just, what's been happening. My career is as I keep going, people keep saying, keep going, or I get opportunities or, you know, and it's kind of a funny thing in this industry because it's so hard to get stuff made and stuff falls apart a lot.
And a couple of us writers recently were like, yeah, we would quit if like this industry didn't keep validating just cause it's so hard to maintain a stable career, but
Nora Logan: What was that first short that you made?
Ashley Eakin: So it's called XO and it's very obscure. It was actually based off of an idea that my dad, he told me a story about this fish tank that he had and he ended up, it was like a little mini, [00:16:00] like, crawdad lobster type of a thing that was in his fish tank and before he left for work there, it was dead, it was floating at the top of the fish tank and he then threw it away in his trash, went to work.
When he came home from work, there was, it was swimming in the fish tank. And he's like, what the heck happened there? And when he told me this story, my brain created a whole narrative of like, Okay, it like got out of the trash, climbed back into the fish tank, you know, and what is happening? And What actually happened is lobsters molt, so they shed their skin and it looks like there's two lobsters.
It completely, like, sheds its body. And the other one, like, the real lobster was just hiding. And I was so fascinated with how our brains make up stories. Like, we put a narrative to things, you know, and that's our way of processing stuff. [00:17:00] And so I created a short that's, um, That is the theme and that story is actually told in the short and it's You know, it's kind of a a meta almost like it, you know As you're watching this short you're thinking something about the character that you're seeing But reality is different than what you're seeing So it's like the story is played out through a little bit of a narrative But then that story is also told in the short. It's funny because I made it and some people were like Oh, I get it. I don't get it. And then like, it went to one film festival and I was doing a Q and A and someone was like, this was genius. That is so nice. You know, like someone got what I was trying to do. I was an inexperienced filmmaker.
So there's the execution could have been like way better, but it just proved to me that like, Oh, I have all these ideas swirling around. I should actually put them on paper more and try, you know, and there was some interesting elements and shots and people were like, okay, you have an eye for what you want and you know, you have a [00:18:00] POV.
So I feel like that is really, you know, you needed to do that first one to see if you can bring the pieces together. And also like, did you like bringing the pieces together? I think that's a huge element of directing. It's so hard. And unless you love it. Go do something else. It's like, you have to really just love this because of how hard it is.
So,
Nora Logan: yeah, and I love that idea of shedding because it speaks to a human experience as well. And it's such a, it really is a brave thing to just go and decide, okay, I'm going to make something just to see. What I think it's true of anyone who decides to have an artistic career. And it's why I love speaking to different types of artists so much.
It's because you have to just be willing to throw things at the wall and see what sticks in order to get better. And, and like you say, the film industry is such a tough industry and you don't always know if, if you're going to have, if the next thing is going to come or if you're going to keep getting that validation.
And, and it takes, it takes some [00:19:00] internal drive to just say, okay, well, I'm, I'm going to try this thing and see how it goes. And then I'll go to a Q and a, and someone will give me the feedback of how brilliant it is. And that's enough to be like, okay, I'm going to keep going.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, and, and, you know, between all of that, you get a lot of negative feedback, you know, and, and it's really trying not to focus on that negative feedback unless everyone is saying it, then you should probably reassess if this is right for you.
Like, You know, I think there's people who are made for this career and there's people who are not. So I think understanding if there is something there to pursue, you know, is, is finding your place is like, you know, you got to see how people are receiving your work. If you're the only one who's ever understanding it, maybe, you know, this won't be a career.
It can more be a hobby or something, you know, that's
Nora Logan: kind of,
Ashley Eakin: you got to determine that.
Nora Logan: Yes. That's good advice. So your work really strives to buck the [00:20:00] notion that disabled people are a monolith. That there is somehow one narrative from your short Roommates, in which the characters drink, smoke weed, and also discuss the freedom of, one of the characters discusses the freedom of being a wheelchair user, and then to Single another short that you directed.
in which the protagonist contemplates how fucked up it is to be set up on a date simply because they have a similar disability with the person that they're on a date with. You really seem to be committed to portraying disabled people in all their humanity and their personality, their flaws, and I'm curious to know how your own experience informs your work, and why it's important for you to make work like this.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah, I think, you know, that journey of starting to look at how disabled people are portrayed in media, and realizing the lack of humanity in a lot of those roles, is really what [00:21:00] motivated me, but Something really interesting is like, because I was so ashamed of my disability, even though it's visible and everyone can see it, in my head, I saw myself almost as non disabled.
Like, I would forget, almost, that I'm disabled, and I'd just be, Like any other person out there and me feeling all the complicated nuances of just being a human is why I'm like, Oh, everyone thinks that disabled people are so different, but no, I feel just how you feel just in a different body, you know, and I think that is really what I I wanted to show these like other ideas about disability and I mean a lot of these ideas I felt shameful about for a while like I felt Oh, there's something wrong with me that I feel that it's messed up to get Like set up on a date with another disabled person or that I wouldn't want to date another disabled [00:22:00] person You know, there's just all these ideas of things that I was kind of like grappling with.
And so I put those into my films of things, you know, where the most hilarious thing is I share this film and then everyone's like, Oh, I felt the exact same way. Like I was really, you know, now I don't know, maybe it's different if I, I mean, I'm married, you know, but maybe I would date a disabled person where I'm at now, but when I was super insecure about my disability, I couldn't handle.
Two people being incredibly insecure about disability, you know, like, or me, I would, even if the other person was secure, I would feel insecure, like how people were looking at us or, you know, and I like went on a date with someone who had a disability as well. And I was like, I could not unfocus on like people thinking if people were staring at both of us, like, Oh, this is interesting.
You know? And I have to say like, society does treat people with disabilities. You know, I think [00:23:00] like when, when people are together, like I will have a friend with a disability come and stay with me and we'll go walk around San Monica and we both have visible disabilities and people will like be hilarious and like really smile at us so happy that we found a friend or they'll just like, give us, they'll be like, oh here, this way, or like, let us do things that they're gonna, about to do, or like, just act weird.
And you're like, you know, so it is, society does react a certain way. So I feel, yeah, I just want to show these experiences that I hadn't seen much. And stuff. So
. Um, and
Nora Logan: you're, we should say that you're, that single won at South by Southwest. It premiered in, in 2020 and it, it won the Special Jury Recognition Award, and you're now developing it into a series for fx. And I really laughed at the premise because also I, I identify with that.
I've, I've had multiple people say to me, Oh, I once had someone say, I've had, you know, I've, I've had a liver transplant and I had someone say, Oh, I should set you up on a blind date with my friend. He has this condition where he was born with his organs on the outside. [00:24:00] And that was like, somehow would mean that we have a connection.
And, and you've said, I wrote single in five days, and I was just the most honest I've ever been in anything I've written. It was terrifying. I was like, I don't know if people are going to read this and think I'm a bad person. And it's, that was so interesting to me to read that because I also write in this way that is kind of sarcastic about the disabled experience.
And, and just, it's just, it's just. Who I am, and it's not that I wouldn't want to go on a date with someone with a condition where their organs were on the outside, outside at the time of their birth, but I also just don't know if that's enough for me to get along with someone. So I love that you focus on, on that in, in this short and also that you're, you're developing it into a longer form project.
How is it going?
Ashley Eakin: You know, they, they have a term in a Hollywood called Development Hell. And, you [00:25:00] know, it's, it's, it's been slow, you know, but it's been good to explore this character more and really, what do I want to say about this experience? And, you know, it's, it's been going good and I hope it makes it to the screen it's a miracle if your show gets made and I would be incredibly lucky if the first show I ever sold. Actually gets made because you kind of hear the stats from writers in our industry and you're like, oh they've sold You know 17 shows and only like 15 Went to you know, the next step and then only one of them got made and you're like, oh wow okay, so we'll see but I've spent so much time with this character and and There's a lot that you can say about, you know, society and the disabled experience in a TV show that lasts over a long period of time, so I hope it gets to, you know, be seen in a longer form, and I think even if it doesn't end up being made as into a TV show, I may take that These characters and do like feature or something.
So we'll see what happens with it. But [00:26:00] you know, it's definitely about a lot about how like society that internal angst that you feel towards society judging you. And I realized like, I go in and out of like my rage era of being angry and then sometimes not caring and sometimes not even noticing if people look at me, but like, It's just a really weird experience because you can go a whole day where no one does anything and then you can go a whole day where people are literally doing the most absurd things and saying really bizarre things to you or being really rude, my husband will go to like a store and for some reason it's a lot of like older women and the like stop and just stare at me and for a long time.
And my husband will be like, excuse you, you know, and sometimes I don't see these things because people do it behind me or try and at least hide it. But there's some people who just don't hide it at all. And, it's definitely fun to kind [00:27:00] of You know, Single was like, I would never do that as a person.
Like I would never throw things or like be kind of have a little bit of a tantrum, but inside I'm saying very mean things about the person doing this. You know, it's like internally I'm very angry and I kind of just want to be like. You know, say all the bad things. Um, but I don't because I'm like, this isn't worth it.
And I try and just brush it off and continue on my day, but with a TV show you can do, you can explore this however you want. And so I've been trying some really fun things of like. You get to hear what this person is thinking or you know that all that type of stuff So we'll see, I think it it definitely that short writing the thing that scared me the most and being the most vulnerable and honest is the short that's basically Opened up my career and kind of like I got agents from that I ended up i've gotten so many projects because of that short still to this day people will be [00:28:00] like can we show it or we want to see it or you know, and it's a You It was definitely the most rewarding to say the things that scared me, and I think because there are other people out there that are thinking these things or want to be like, yeah, disability is always so like cute and patronizing.
And like, why do we feel that that represents us? Or why do we feel we have to like, You know, be a part of that. We can be a part of something different. And so, yeah, that's what I, that's what I'm doing with the show and crossing our fingers. So we'll see.
Nora Logan: Yeah. I have that same experience of, I just finished the first draft of a feature that I've been working on with the director and the, it's based on my story and based on a version of a pilot that I wrote years ago.
And the main character is basically, My alter ego of things I wish I could say in the moment, and a more, a braver version of myself that kind of is willing to say, fuck you in the moment, the [00:29:00] proverbial fuck you, and it's so fun to write because, you know, either I'm not quick enough in the moment, or I don't want to be rude, or I want to caretake other people's feelings or whatever it may be.
And, yeah. And the thing about being vulnerable in one's work is that it usually does have the effect of connecting with other people, because we have, most people walk around with such a rich inner life and don't say half the things they think.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I think it's catharsis, you know, like creating this character was such a catharsis moment for me.
And it was interesting, the reaction, like some non disabled people would be like, that's over exaggerated. And I'm like, It's not like the way that people act towards you. It's not over exaggerated, And sometimes it's even worse than what I was just showing, you know and and so that was really interesting to to see people's reaction and then I also had some Disabled people that were like she's really rude and she should not represent disabled people And i'm like, I agree there should [00:30:00] be so many different disabled people and so much different content but This is one character, like, this is a character we haven't really seen as much that has a disability, and, and I agreed with the person, but they were not very happy that, because there's just not enough, you know, and that's the problem with, venturing into this world of underrepresented stories or characters is like you're gonna make some people mad because there's just not enough We need like so many disabled stories with so many different perspectives So it can you know just show this wide breadth of personalities and that's also why I created that character with uh, jordan is like someone who's a little more well adjusted who also has a disability, so that was important to me to kind of show conflicting persona or just differing personalities.
Nora Logan: Yeah, because no one person is the same. It's the same as as female characters being portrayed and the vitriol that gets put on them or the projections that get put on them. And we need [00:31:00] lots of different stories about women. Yeah, absolutely. It's not just the mother and it's not just the maiden or, you know, whatever it is.
Right. Um, So you've, you've spoken a couple of times to how difficult the, the industry is. And in particular, I feel like Hollywood in this moment is going through something and has been for a while. And when I became disabled, I was 28 years old and I was working in TV production. And I tried to go back to work again and swiftly became sick and had to be re hospitalized.
And I really felt at that time that I wasn't able to be a part of it anymore. And I had to find it. I really was felt forced to find a different career and because my body couldn't fit into the conditions of where I worked. And as a result, I spent a good few years feeling like I had to let go of my career in TV and film.
And now I've found my way back to it through writing. For a while, I really just felt like, okay, I don't fit into this [00:32:00] industry. I have to let go of what was a lifelong dream. And I know you've also talked about how you felt like you didn't really belong in Hollywood and how no one would take you. You were worried that no one would take you seriously.
And now you're really leading the way as a disabled filmmaker and advocate. And I know you also uplift other people in the industry, and I'm wondering how you managed to shift that narrative for yourself, which you have already touched on a little bit, and also what you might say to someone who is struggling with that themselves, especially in this particular moment, because it is a It's, it, it's a moment in history.
Yeah.
Ashley Eakin: I think our industry is definitely changing. I mean, there's a lot of contraction happening. So like disabled stories, unfortunately have been kind of on the chopping block, but that's not going to be forever. And I think we will get back to like making sure underrepresented voices are being shared and shown and something really cool [00:33:00] that I experienced I worked on an Apple show called Best Foot Forward and I directed two episodes of that and When I started my prep there was a woman who came and said And actually they're non binary, I'm gonna fix that.
They are, they came and talked to me about how their role was the accessibility coordinator, the production accessibility coordinator. And I was like, what is that? I have no idea. And they revealed that it's this position where It's anyone who has a disability can come to them and talk about their accessibility, like, needs.
And it's a below the line person, so it's not a producer, director, it's not someone where your job could be impacted, and it's confidential. And they help you get those You know, things that you need to do your job better that aren't even necessarily expensive. You know, it's not like this huge cost to the production, but it's like it creates a safe space for everyone to go and communicate with someone to say, Hey, you know what?
This day I get really tired of. There can be like when we're doing the scouting, if there can be a chair or something, you know, whatever people need, you know, and the [00:34:00] way sets run in the timeline and everything is very like militant and learning about the history of that is actually because all the men came home from war and a lot of them went into making films and they just ran these productions like They ran it, you know, in the military.
And, and so it's fascinating to me that the way a set is run is also like made up, you know, and we can have new ways that it's done. And so it's, it's really interesting with like the unions fighting for less hours, like, you know, These people who work these trade jobs of, you know, being a set dresser or something are working 12 hours plus a day and don't have time for their family.
And they're going from show to show to show, you know, as a writer director. What I really liked about the role when I was assisting John Chu is like, There are periods where it is production. You're on, you're going, going, going, but then there's like a period of post, which is really [00:35:00] downtime. You're not, it's not as much like physical energy.
And then there's a time of pre production, which is the same, you know, so like, I like that balance of like really intense work and then time off really intense work and then time off. So that's why I feel this role is, is a doable role for someone who has like a disability that impacts. How much, you know, energy they're spending because especially if you're the director like You get to say on this set, I want it to be run this way. I've worked for a lot of different people in this industry and they'll make really big exceptions, spent a lot of money to do it, how someone wants it to be done. It's just, we all have to get there. Those people have earned that because of the success they've had.
Unfortunately, it's like you need those successes so then people can cater to you, which is I don't really agree that it should be that way, but that's why these production accessibility coordinators are so interesting to me because you can get those needs. met without it being a big deal, [00:36:00] you know, and I think what's really interesting is on that show, we started off, I think, with like, there's like eight or nine people that identified as disabled.
And then by the end, 22 different people who came to her saying, Hey, you know, I, I think I need this, whether it's just like, I need, I have a vision, you know, disability and I need the call sheet to be inverted because it's easier for me to read. Like it's really easy things to do and you know, we have people who have autism.
And so there was in between like lunch breaks, there was like, A sensory deprivation room where you could just like sit in silence without all the noise and all the stuff, you know And so it's these things that like it wasn't a huge ordeal to make them happen You know but sometimes you need that privacy and confidence of someone not to be like well that person needed this when like when you actually Break it down.
It's not that much money and I talked to Actually like held a panel with this student DGA disability committee that we started. And the [00:37:00] UPM, like the, the production manager of that show goes, it's not a big issue if we know up front, which like everyone sees how we adjusted to COVID. And like, There's a bunch of money for COVID, you know, all the things that we needed for it on set.
Let's just use a budget like that and say, okay, this budget, this percentage is always gonna go to accessibility and anything that we need. If we don't need it, then we save money in the end, you know, and I think that's like what needs to shift. It's gonna be a long time until that shifts because I just feel people, there's so much resistance still within like Our industry is very patriarchal.
I mean, you look at the women to men, you know, directors, it's very vast still. So there's a long way to go, but I do feel at least there is a group of us who are fighting for that and pushing forward. And it's only going to gain momentum as our successes build, you know, that's where once you have the platform and that's what I realized working for John Chu, you know, he had this [00:38:00] platform and he was at this place going, what do I want to make next?
That's gonna like, create change, and that's when he decided to do Crazy Rich Asians. So I think I've learned a lot from that as like, there's a time and a place to then demand things, but you almost have to get there and then start reverse engineering stuff because otherwise people will just be like, they're problematic, write you off, not give you jobs.
You know, it's like, it's, it's tough, but I think, I think Things are changing and I think that's hopeful, but it is, you know, it's hard. It's hard unless you have that kind of safe person to, to talk to about these things that you need. So,
Nora Logan: yeah, that's so interesting about the, it being run like a military operation, my experience on set, that's very apt and it makes perfect sense that it's like that.
Yeah. And. The, when, once we start to realize these types of things, we can create change. And realizing that we don't have to do it the way it's always been done. And something that I always relate to the, the disability conversation is recently. Sarah Polley talked about how she ran her set on [00:39:00] women talking and how everyone, most people on the crew were women and many people had kids.
And so they would end their days earlier than they would usually. So people could go pick up their kids and they, and they got everything done and everything was fine. And, and they made a beautiful film and. Accommodations can be made in the same way for disability and how interesting that just from creating the conditions for people to feel safe enough to come and share what they need, how many, that's a pretty massive jump to go from eight people to 22 people in the course of a production.
And it's, it was just a case of making people feel safe enough that they could share and that it was okay to have
Ashley Eakin: needs. Yeah, and how many people actually deal with a disability that never disclose, you know, and that's what's really beautiful about this disability committee that we started at the DGA is It has brought so many people together going.
[00:40:00] I'm dealing with this issue. No one on my set knows How do I deal with this? Or am I gonna get discriminated against? What's gonna happen? And like, just having these real, honest conversations, and I'm like, you might. Like, that's the truth of it, is we don't live in a world that's like, you know, idyllic of how we want it to be, but There might be someone else on that set who then feels safe enough to go, wow, that person's a leader and they were open and vulnerable.
Maybe I can like actually say, Hey, I just need a little light when I read this. Cause I can't, you know, if there's like a vision issue or something like it could be just a small accommodation could actually make things better and easier. And everyone's working at their best, you know, in their most efficient capacity.
If everyone is just, You know, needing these little things and, and it was really, it's been really amazing and I just hope the momentum keeps going because [00:41:00] there's a lot of people who don't want, you know, they say they do, but they don't want more diversity or more different because then they feel their job is at stake, which there should just be room for everyone.
And I, and I really believe that.
Nora Logan: Speaking of the DGA disability committee and the community that's come from that. Have you found new directors or other people's work through being a part of that and, and finding other people whose, whose work that you're interested in and want to uplift because I've seen in your, in part of what you do is, is really uplift other people's work.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah, totally. I mean, I, I always am someone who believes in the work, like believes in doing the work and like having. You know good taste and I definitely want to uplift people that i'm like, they should be noticed and they're actually really great and And you know that that was something that when I worked for john he like [00:42:00] cared about the work and that people were like doing the work and not just like Oh, you know, like he didn't hire me because he felt bad for me or he, you know, wanted to be a good person.
It's like he hired me because I had the right experience and I had done So much assisting before working for him So I like knew what I was doing and i'm the same way where I'm like, I want to lift up people who are doing the work actually, you know are pushing forward in a way that I find is interesting and you know, I think we can We have to like rise together, you know, and that's how I don't just want it to be me.
We already know what happens if I'm one of the few voices. People don't agree with what I'm making. And I'm like, I'm not the only one. Like there's other people out here. And like my friend Sheridan O'Donnell, he just had a film come out and it has, you know, it doesn't really, it deals with some like mental disability stuff, but.
You know, he is a low vision filmmaker and kind of found out in the middle of making this film, which is fascinating. And his just determination to keep [00:43:00] pushing forward. And, you know, he's like a true artist, filmmaker, and he's someone that I just love uplifting or trying to help with opportunities. And my other friend, Brett Milleen, he's like the funniest person makes hilarious stuff.
And, and, you know, these people should have bigger careers, you know, and a lot of people come to me and be like, Oh, you've done six shorts. You've done all these programs. Why haven't you directed a feature? And I'm like, it's hard and there's still bias and things fall apart all the time.
Getting financing when you're trying to cast disabled leads is really hard. And so I think if there's any way for us to like lift each other up, that's only gonna help us in the end, you know, to all kind of, there's a group of us. It's not just one story. There's multiple stories. And, that's always been.
really important to me with like female filmmakers, disabled filmmakers, female and non binary filmmaker. We need to be allies for each other and not think like scarcity [00:44:00] mindset. I do see that also happening within marginalized communities of like, I have to be the one or else like someone else is getting it, you know, which is like, sadly, that's those studios and executives that are like, well, we already have our one thing about disability.
And you're like, no, you know, so sadly, it makes sense why people feel that way. But I think just showing and people taking our community more seriously is only gonna help everyone. Like, if my friend succeeds and he is a low vision filmmaker, that's disrupting what people think about filmmakers. That's good for all of us, you know?
, you know, and Daisy, I love like, I mean, Daisy just pushes forward and like, she's so, she's so much ahead of her and I'm really excited for how her career is like going to blossom and
Nora Logan: yeah, there's just a lot of people. Yeah, Daisy Friedman, who's a, who's a young filmmaker, uh, and has, and hasn't even graduated from university and she's already made a short, so, and, and is currently working on a documentary.
So, yeah. There's, there's so much, there's so many different varied stories to tell. And I love this, this, what you, you just made me think of your, your [00:45:00] film, This Body is a Shell, which really seems like a true collaborative effort from the casting to the project itself. Can you, can you tell us a little bit about that?
And how you came to, to make that film.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah. You know that film came to be 'cause a DP that I worked with like a decade ago, same movie that the director was on who told me I should be a director. So we like, he was a camera pa, I was like an intern pa and we connected a couple years ago or like a year ago, and he.
Maybe a couple of years. My, my clock after COVID is like so messed up. I know it's completely skewed. It's, I'm like, I don't even know where we're at, but he is directing or he's DPing features now. And, you know, we just connected. He really liked a short that I did that's on Netflix and we talked about it and he's like, well, if there's ever something you want to make, like, let me know.
And then he reached out to me last summer during the strikes and was like, Hey, I might have, I have like old. Rules of film I need to use. Would you want to make something? And I was like, yeah, you know, and he sent me this little piece that's [00:46:00] like a couple minutes long of girls counting to 100, like in a, in a field.
And I was like, that's cool. I'm like, let me think of what I want to make. And I've always wanted to make a very like editorial piece about disabled women and body image and your scars. And, you know, I, I just like sat down and I was like, Okay, what do I want to do? And I was like, I think I want to write a poem and I like wrote this poem and then I started putting a deck together with like imagery of like mirrors.
And I had a lot of issues growing up with like mirrors and like looking into a full length. Body mirror was like horrifying for me. I would turn away mirrors. If I had one on my closet, I'd open the door all the way. So like you couldn't see it, you know, I would just like really, because I would feel great and then I look in the mirror and be like, this isn't how I feel my body looks, you know?
And, and so it would like really kind of mess with my confidence, but I, I went through this whole journey of like accepting my disabled identity and my body and realizing like the more I looked at myself, the more [00:47:00] I felt okay with it is almost like exposure therapy. And so now I really like try and force myself to, to look in a mirror.
Even I'm like getting naked and looking in front of a mirror. Just like be so comfortable with yourself that you know what was happening to me is I would start to see images or videos of me and I'm like weird. I feel like my body's like Healing in a weird way, but it's actually just like your inner Self that is healing and you you look at yourself in a more loving way than you did before And you're used to it.
, I think that's something that we really don't You know, think about a lot is, is like, sometimes if you hide something, it feels foreign to you, you know, but it's, it's because you just don't look at it a lot, but yeah, so I, all these ideas were swirling and this DP was like, wait, I love this idea.
We should actually just shoot it on digital cameras because I feel like the film, you might not be able to see like skin and scars and, he's like, we have one shot. There's not even a monitor like. He loved the idea so much that it ended up being like, [00:48:00] it's going to be a one day shoot turned into a four day shoot.
And he puts so much behind it. We both just like putting our own money, made it really scrappy. I knew these women through other just connecting and, Social media, the disability community. And I was like, which I presented them with a deck and was like, would you guys want to be a part of this?
And they were all like, this is, it seems really cool and beautiful. And so grateful to them. Cause we went out to the desert for like 10 hours a day and just like. Played around, you know, and really I had a really robust shot list. But once you get out there, you're like, all right, let's get inspired by what we're seeing and that was so fun because we got some of the images from that I'm like, it's the most striking beautiful portrayal of like different bodies and I always look at my body as like something that isn't beautiful but when it's like you can shoot something in a certain way that just like Shows the environment juxtapose against these bodies that are also natural to the environment.
It's just, it was such a [00:49:00] cool artistic expression and I feel after being in development so much and going through the strikes and like notes. I had a couple projects get killed and just like the process of development can really grind you down and make you feel like. Is anything I do good? Is anything I do like still hold that original idea?
And so with this, I was like, I don't want any notes from anyone. Like, even when I made the deck with my, to my, I didn't even show my husband, which he's always the first person I show stuff to, because he's also a writer, filmmaker. And I was like, I'm not going to even show it to him because I feel like he's going to say something and that negative thought's going to get lodged in my head,
and, and so I just like, We did it and he, I mean, he edited it so he definitely, you know, did notes in that way of like editing, but it was just really fulfilling creatively and reminding you like, oh, like art sometimes should just be like inspired and not like through this like process of, You know, capitalism and a money making business.
It's like, oh, we are given [00:50:00] these gifts of art just to express, like, really complicated feelings. And that film, honestly, like, some of the messages I got from people when I put it out was, like, the most beautiful message I've ever received. And you're like, okay, I don't even know if I need to make films anymore.
I did the thing I wanted to do, you know? And, and so that, um, It was really amazing, but it's so experimental that some people didn't get it, and some people were like it didn't really move them in the way that it moved the other person who's like sobbing, you know, and I saw that even in my own like family and stuff is like who like my dad watched it and was so Sobbing like so like uncontrollable and I was like, are you okay?
And then I show it to another family member and they're like that was cool, you know Like they do you could tell like, oh they kind of don't get what I was making, you know and so it's really interesting just to see that art Is this cool medium where like people are going to connect to it and other people aren't, and so it was just a really cool experience and, and a lot of people, [00:51:00] cool people coming together to create something that I think is special.
So yeah. And
Nora Logan: it really is this, it's, it's almost like performance art when you watch it and it is truly a visual poem and we'll put it on the website so people can see because it's just so Gorgeous. And something that struck me in watching your work, watching This Body is a Shell and, and also watching Forgive Us Our Trespasses, which is the film that you mentioned that's on Netflix, is how, how different it is.
And, but you still speak to the core of the human experience, the disabled experience, not being just one thing, uh, and it really just being a human experience. Yeah. And. It's, it's, and also then just thinking about how, how different it is to single and how that's from a comedic lens, because forgive us our trespasses is a very serious, a serious subject matter about the Nazi regime and how they treated disabled children in, in that time.
And, and then you, you jumped to something completely different with single and, and then something [00:52:00] even very experimental with this body of the cell, it's really, it's really. Interesting to see the breadth of your work.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah. And I get, I get that a lot of like, these are so two different things and like, what, and I'm like, yeah, because I feel as a filmmaker, like so many of us, especially female filmmakers are
trapped into a space and like you can only make this thing and I'm like, I want to make a lot of different things and, that's why I love storytelling is because it's like, you make something specific to the story. You know, it always, it shouldn't always look the same. It shouldn't always be, you know, a similar approach.
So I think that's like the fun of it for me, but it definitely when, the business side of it is trying to put you in a box and be like, she does this. It's like, yeah, Even when people ask me, do you do comedy or drama? And I'm like, I do both, and some people are really weirded out by that, which they shouldn't be like we're storytellers.
We can be in any, medium and if we want to. So I think, yeah, it's, it's always interesting when it's reflected [00:53:00] back to me. And I also realize I like to do Heavy and then something light and then heavy and then something light because I think you live, you live these films so much, even shorts, like I like dedicate my soul to it, you know, and I feel always doing something that's like funny.
I'm like, but wait, This isn't all of me. And then when I do something dark, I'm like, Ooh, I need something that's like fun and joyful. And so I like to kind of go back and forth and I'm curious to see if like, once I start doing, you know, more bigger scale stuff, if it's going to all lean one way or not,
and I, I've really realized with pitching comedy. With disability is an easier sell for people because they're like, Ooh, this is a heavy topic. It's disability, you know, and then like, Oh, wait, we get to laugh. Then people see it, I guess. But I love drama. I came in wanting to do drama, you know, and I feel like Some people are just like, Oh, that's really, that's really heavy.
Unless they want to like cast it [00:54:00] with a non disabled actor, then the, then they'll consider it. But I'm like, you can't, I don't want to do that and so it's interesting once the, the commerce element gets brought into this, the scenario, it changes things.
Nora Logan: Yeah. And comedy. It makes people relax in a way if they can laugh or something and, and, and drop, but it, you know, it's just, there's so many different dramas about really heavy, violent things that, that disability shouldn't be scary to people.
Ashley Eakin: I know, trust me, pitching certain things, people will say feedback and I'm like, this actually doesn't have that at all, but like you're just uncomfortable with disability and this subject matter, you know, like even, it's interesting. I mean, I could go, we could talk for another hour about that.
We
Nora Logan: could, absolutely. Maybe we'll, we'll do another episode in a couple of years and see what everything is. Yeah, exactly. A, a second, . Cause there's just so much to, to talk about. It
Ashley Eakin: really is.
Nora Logan: But we're winding down, and I close [00:55:00] every episode with three questions
and the first one is, if you lived in a world that completely catered to your disability, what would that look like?
Ashley Eakin: Oh my gosh. This is something that I never think of because my body is so different. And Also, every person with my rare disease has a different body. Like, it's not, oh, this is how your body ends up manifesting.
Like, some people, you won't even be able to tell physically that they have my disease. And then some people are, wheelchair users. So it's like, the spectrum is like, so vast. But I think for me, it's like, Adjustable things, like, I don't know, I feel like, you know, seats, my thighs are shorter, so, like, seats that weren't always so long, like, my, you just realize, like, everything in our society is made for one, kind of standard body size, which, they have to pick,, it's like, who are we gonna base this off of, you know, and, and so, I don't know, I mean, I think just, like, a lot more things that are adjustable, or, you know, I feel like, Tools to help [00:56:00] people do things like I'm shorter and also my friend who's non disabled is as tall as me You know like but at grocery stores We both laugh about how like we are climbing the stuff to get the thing we need at the top, you know And why not just have a little flap that comes down so people can like step up on something or you know I feel like it's so great.
Yeah, I'm just like little things that really You know, or they have, like, you go to the bathroom and the place to hang your thing is, like, the very top of the door, and you're like, why? Like, put it in the middle, you know, or just different things that you can't, you know, tall people can shrink to, like, fit something on a, you know, door hanger, but, like, short people can't do the tall thing, so maybe more skewing that way, I don't know.
I mean, I went to a bathroom in Ireland, in Dublin last year, and the bathroom had like so much accessibility where it was like for multiple heights, wheelchair, like it was the most accessible bathroom I've ever seen and it was almost [00:57:00] jarring because I'm like, literally, there's like so many different options of how to use things.
And I was like, This is cool. This is like thinking forward, so yeah, I think design as a whole, you know, universal design is such a interesting concept. And I think if things were just designed universally benefit so many more people.
Nora Logan: Yeah, Ireland really knows what it's doing .
Yeah, yeah, they're good. They're good at taking care of people. Yes. So what's one phrase or saying that you always come back to? Hmm, um,
Ashley Eakin: That fear is the killer of creativity. I actually am, I stole that from John Chu, my old boss, but he said it once and I was like, Okay, that is so true. When I'm working from a place of fear, like it's okay if things scare you a little bit and it can motivate you if it scares you, but Don't let fear win because then it starts to like, are you working out of fear?
Are you working, you know, you got to figure out your [00:58:00] motivations of what your choices are. And I think fear is the true killer of creativity, like dream big, you know? And especially as like writer directors, we should dream huge. And then our producers are going to reign us in anyway. So
Nora Logan: that's such good advice.
That's such good advice. And I've, I needed to hear that this week. So thank you for sharing that. And then finally, what's one thing you do to keep yourself creative each day?
Ashley Eakin: Ooh, you know something I've done ever since it's not probably each day But something i've done ever since college is I actually have like a secret tumblr and Yeah, and I still I look at images and anything that moves me in any capacity like it can trigger a memory it can trigger a feeling Any and it can be like, oh, that's that could be an interesting character.
Like it's not necessarily how i'm feeling and like You I will reblog it or save it to my Tumblr so I can go back to it and be like, What are quotes I liked or images that inspire me or you know And I always realize when I do that and I spend like [00:59:00] even just like 10 minutes Collecting a couple of things.
It really just opens my mind to like, oh, yeah, I am an artist I am a creative person, sometimes when you're getting stuck in like what does the market want?I t's like that's the trap and you got to stay in the zone of like what moves you, what makes you feel something, and then maybe because it makes you feel something, it can make other people feel something.
So I do that to kind of stay in, you know, in, in a creative space.
Nora Logan: I can imagine that also as a director, having that visual element to it is, is so inspiring too making me want to re go back to my Tumblr of 2008 and see what, yeah,
Ashley Eakin: seriously, I know I used to like, I gave like a couple people the link and like, I'm sure people could find it if they dug, but it's, it used to be something where like I post something or reblog like You know a quote and like my sister my mom would look at like it was just really close family And they'd be like, are you okay?
And i'm like, no, no, that's not like me. That's like a character i'm thinking of They think the really dark thing is like something that i'm feeling [01:00:00] currently and i'm like, no, no, this is like For something else, you know, so
Nora Logan: that's also always the risk of putting anything out. I find that people, people are like, are you okay?
And I'm like, no, it's just my creative expression. I'm fine. Don't worry. Yeah.
Ashley Eakin: Yeah. Yeah. You're like, this isn't, this isn't directly me. Like everyone thinks all my characters are always me. And I'm like, No, they might have certain things, but it's not actually me like this isn't, you know, but yeah,
Nora Logan: well, thank you so much for being here today, Ashley.
It's been really great to have you and just for sharing your vision with us and everything that you're doing in the world. Keep doing it. I'm really excited to see where everything goes for you. Yeah, thank you so much. It was great to be here. That was our show, So Life Wants You Dead. This episode was made with support from Awakening Healthcare, encouraging and supporting providers and patients to reconnect with their souls.
Many thanks to Stephanie MoDavis and Ruby Shah. Our illustrations are by Ronaé Fagan. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, leave us a [01:01:00] review, rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find us on Instagram @solifewantsyoudead, where you can follow along for updates about the show.
Thanks so much, and see you next time.