In this episode, Nora talks to Claudia Rose Walder, a London-based editor and creative director working within the realms of styling, image direction and journalism. She is also a disability activist, model and the founder of Ablezine, a magazine dedicated to disabled and chronically ill communities, young people and creatives. We talk about Claudia’s experience living with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, the difficulty of finding appropriate care, her creative outlets and what led her to create Ablezine.
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Nora Logan: Wow, this is so life once you did a show that
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explores the intersection of illness, disability, healing and
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creativity. Seven years ago, I was told I would need an
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emergency organ transplant.
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Before they put me under, I close my eyes and imagine myself
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writing. Now all these years later, I can say, that was
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honestly what saved me. Well, I have a brand new lipo. I'm Nora
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Logan, and this is a podcast on how looking at death helps you
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live. Today, my guest is Claudia Waldo. Claudia is an editor,
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Creative Director and disability activist who created the
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publication able zine dedicated to disabled and chronically ill
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communities, young people, and creatives. On today's episode,
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we talk about Claudia's experience living with my logic
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and Cephalo myelitis. Her creative outlets and what led
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her to creating tables in the first magazine made by and for
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disabled people. Here's the conversation. Welcome to select
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one to date. Claudia, thank you so much for being here today. In
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2017, you were diagnosed with a multi system disorder called
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myalgic encephalomyelitis, commonly known as chronic
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fatigue syndrome, you've since been diagnosed with
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fibromyalgia, can you tell me a bit about how you came to be
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diagnosed with this and what some of the common symptoms are.
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Unknown: So in 2017, I started experiencing symptoms that I
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hadn't had before with regards to different parts of my body or
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reproductive system. And I had an infection and I took some
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antibiotics given to me by by the doctor, and I went from
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never having any sort of gastrointestinal issues in my
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life to feeling like a bomb had exploded in my my gut, and I
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couldn't eat without being in pain. And I wasn't metabolizing
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my food, my energy went down hill extremely rapidly, and I
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was sleeping sort of 16 hour days, and I couldn't, I just
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felt like I couldn't stay awake.
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Even if mentally you're quite wired, your your whole system is
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impacted by such a heavy sense of fatigue that you you're
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you're just beginning to struggle immensely. Yeah, that
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was when I got diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, which
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is relatively similar to long COVID, which maybe more people
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are aware of Now, both of them can be sort of viral, triggered
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by different viral infections.
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But I always use this analogy of a Jenga block when people talk
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about health and how how chronic illness can impact the body. And
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essentially, there's so many different things in our life,
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things that we're not even aware of, or can't see, like
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pollution, chemical sensitivity, how you given birth to whether
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you were breastfed all these different things can sort of
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benefit the immune system or protect you from different kinds
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of diseases later on in life.
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And then there's things like physical trauma, accidents,
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emotional trauma, and yeah, different medications, drugs,
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all these different things can make you more susceptible to
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illness. And essentially, each each one of those is a piece of
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the Jenga, and you never really know when it's all going to come
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tumbling down. That was the first sort of diagnosis for me
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and the first symptoms that I began to experience. And then
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through a lack of health care, and general guard from the
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medical community that this disease is really life altering,
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and real. Yeah, I began to develop chronic pain. And since
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then, I've been diagnosed with a handful of other comorbidities
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or other sorts of diseases that fall under that same kind of
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umbrella of autoimmune or different kinds of chronic pain
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conditions and things like that.
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And yeah, many of these conditions are more common
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amongst women. And I think sexism has impacted healthcare
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so much that we don't really recognize how many people are
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suffering through a lack of health care, especially on the
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NHS.
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Nora Logan: And what was it like when you first went to the NHS
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and you first went to doctors to try to receive help? What was
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the response? Like?
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Unknown: I mean, with with me specifically, it was like, you
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know, obviously, you need to get an official diagnosis,
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especially I was so unwell, I couldn't work, it wouldn't have
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been plausible with the level of sort of fatigue I was
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experiencing. And you need an official diagnosis to be able to
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receive employment benefits and things like that. So yeah, they
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told me that the waiting list was going to be maybe eight or
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nine months to get an official diagnosis. So had to go private
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in order to sort of bypass that waiting list. And from then on,
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it was just kind of disappointment after
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disappointment and this idea that, you know, give it six
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months and you'll be better without any form of health care
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or support whatsoever from us.
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They did give me like B 12 injections, which weren't
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helpful. There's controversial form of physical therapy they
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offer, which is graded exercise therapy, which can be really
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detrimental for people that have post exertional malaise. So
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yeah, it basically opened up a whole world of like, now you're
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your own doctor, and go through these Facebook groups and go
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through all these obscure like research papers about this
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condition. And like rustle up your own treatment plan. When
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you're at your most ill most tired, most physically
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overwhelmed, emotionally overwhelmed, you've ever been in
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your life, you know, you're 23 and we've told you that like the
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NHS is here for you, if anything ever happens, you will receive
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health care. In reality, I didn't. And yeah, on top of
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that, gaslighting, there was my first appointment with the
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specialist I saw privately for my diagnosis, he told me to sit
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up straight and smile. Now Yeah.
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And that things would get better. And yeah, it's it's
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pretty disgusting when you when you're treated like essentially
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like a female receptionist in a 1950s like, movie about trying
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to make it and whatever sort of career path and everyone's just
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concerned with how you look and how you present yourself and
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this idea of mental illness, and that being a big factor, when in
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reality, it's just one of many different Jenga pieces,
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essentially. So yeah, it was pretty heavy, I'm not gonna lie.
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Nora Logan: Yeah, and I mean, I've really identify with that
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internet rabbit hole, trying to kind of figure out what's going
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on with your body. And also, the flip side of it being a place
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for community, I spent hours and hours trying to figure out what
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a certain thing was happening in my body what certain symptom
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meant, what new virus I had, because I was extremely
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immunosuppressed for a long time. But it also connected me
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to the world in a way when I was really isolated. And I know that
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something that's been true for you, how has the internet and
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social media and the information available, there been a support
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for you when maybe the NHS or the medical industrial complex,
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sometimes helped you
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Unknown: that jagged pill, like it was really a lifeline for me
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when I was in the darkest phases of my life, and so early on in
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my 20s, as well, I mean, when you acquire a disability, at
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that point in your life, as opposed to from birth, and well,
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maybe in all the stages of your life, where it's more expected
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that you will lose your health will begin to develop pain and
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things like this. It felt Yeah, I just felt incredibly alone.
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And that's when it taken me about six months of just sort of
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processing all this information on my own, and sort of losing
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all of my friends and realizing that like, you can't always rely
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on family, either. When you're dealing with these types of
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highly stigmatized conditions, and illnesses that people aren't
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familiar with, you know, I remember wishing and praying
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that I had cancer just so that somebody would like, acknowledge
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and help me, as opposed to it just being like such a profound
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struggle that Yeah, honestly, I thought I was losing my mind.
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Then I began to sort of realize, now I'm disabled. And what does
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that mean? Because I couldn't really recognize myself amongst
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any sort of representation of disability, or disability
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iconography that you see in your day to day life. And so I
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decided that I sort of had to come out of the closet, as it
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were, and like, push all that shame and stigma I was feeling
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as far out of my mind as possible and and see, like,
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maybe there are people that can help me, maybe there are people
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out there that know what I'm going through. Maybe there are
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people out there that are experiencing the same thing as
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me. And it's really important that I find them now because
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otherwise you know, I won't survive.
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Nora Logan: In 2018, you wrote an article for goddamn magazine,
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about your illness. And you wrote about your bedroom as your
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sanctuary. Would you read an excerpt from that article from
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for us?
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Unknown: Yeah, sure. My bedroom became both my sanctuary and my
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prison where I'd spend hours was curled up in agony after a
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mountainous task like folding laundry, crying so often I felt
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like a leaky tap. Having worked as a freelance fashion stylist,
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I was used to freedom, hard work and all the outward appearances
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of glamorous lifestyle. Now I could barely dress myself. The
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shame associated with illness and disability is something that
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I struggled with. At first, I was insecure, afraid of
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judgment.
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Nora Logan: When I read your words, I felt a deep
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recognition, both in regards to feeling like a leaky tap, you
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know, and feeling exhausted just after a simple task. And also
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having worked myself both in fashion and TV before getting
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sick, and really creating my identity around hard work. And
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it really took me a long time to shake off the shame I felt after
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my body changed after I became disabled. I was transformed
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really, so radically through illness. I'm curious how you
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grappled with the shame back then. And then also how it's
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shifted over the years.
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Unknown: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think it's such a
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different experience for someone that acquires disability as
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opposed to being born with it, and not necessarily recognizing
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another type of life, or lifestyle or the way that other
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people perceive you. And so, yeah, I mean, I've really felt
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like I've lost a sense of identity, really, really
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rapidly. But I was still in the same place that I'd always been.
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And I think, fashion is such a shallow industry, to be blunt.
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At first, I couldn't even imagine myself in those circles
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anymore. And I felt like there was a process that I had to go
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through emotionally row recognized, why do I feel so
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bad? And why is this so like, suffocating, and it's because
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what I'm experiencing is internalized ableism and
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externalized, ableism. And it but the all of these things were
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still so new to me. And that's when I began to actually
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research disability and the kinds of industries and
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environments that I'd been working in are exposed to
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before, and finding such a lack of evidence that disabled people
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even exist, let alone that they're functioning in society,
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that they are a part of our society. And they are, like you
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or me, you know, and there's not necessarily one local one way to
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be disabled. And so my only experience of disability had
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been through my my mum, because my mum, I was diagnosed with
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Parkinson's disease when I was 14, and she was 41. So give or
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take 10 years, I was able to sort of have a positive disabled
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role model in my life that was still still working, still
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socializing, still experiencing life as before, but with new
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challenges and new things, hurdles to overcome or ways to
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adapt in the workplace. And sort of this was my first experience
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of understanding what is an adaptation? What is a? How is
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this company going to make this accessible to me type thing?
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access needs access requirements, essentially. So
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yeah, I realized that it's nothing to be ashamed of, and
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I'm certainly not ashamed of my mother. So why would I be
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ashamed of myself, you know, I just need to, you just need to
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shake it off. I don't know if there's any, any any other way
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to really get around it. I mean, I still experience internalized
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ableism. For sure. for a really long time, up until really, very
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recently, I couldn't fathom this idea of even wanting to get
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better, because I struggled with feeling like disability was a
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bad thing. Because it brought brought so much change and so
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much awareness and an awakening into my life. A very like
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conscious form of awakening where I felt like this has made
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me a bit better person, this is just increase the amount of
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facets that I have to my identity and my personality. And
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not everybody likes complex things or people you know, not
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everybody likes having to think or adapt in order to do what
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they want. And I think socially, I still struggle a lot with
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having friends. And how do you have friends when you can't
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necessarily be yourself when you can't be fully yourself? What
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about those friends that you know can't necessarily be there
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for you in one dynamic, but they will in another? Socially, we
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really struggle to recognize disability and understand what
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the good thing is to do or what the right thing is to do around
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it. I think too many people are willing to just ignore it and
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shuffle away from it, so that they don't have to put
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themselves in uncomfortable positions and they don't need to
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feel uncomfortable.
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Nora Logan: The world that we live in is so ablest when
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someone's ill, it's at least I can only speak from my own lived
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experience, though many people rallied around me at that time.
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When I was severely ill, there was this sort of expectation
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that I would be, I would someday come back into the fold in the
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same way, maybe not in the same way. But I would come back into
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the fold. And for me, it's been a real process of like,
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separating the wheat from the chaff, really, in terms of
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relationships, and lots of people have stayed and lots of
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people have gone. And that's important because I have I've
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had to rearrange how I am in community with people. And I
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don't have the same type of energy that I once did. And it's
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just an interesting question to think about, because how do
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communities help people thrive?
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When the world is doesn't cater for that? Yeah, one element is
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to think about it in terms of being social and your personal
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relationships. I'm curious to know also, how have you dealt
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with shaking off this idea of productivity being king? And
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reframing what work looks like for you? Have you gone through a
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transformation around that?
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Unknown: Yeah, I mean, when you can't work a nine to five, and
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you're forced to kind of adapt your own style of working, there
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becomes no separation, or there was no separation for me between
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living and working, it was all sort of one in the same, you
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know, it was a good place for me to direct my focus, because
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mental illness is something that I've also struggled with a lot.
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With the isolation most sort of directly, I would say, I think
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social isolation is one of the biggest thing that chronically
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ill or disabled people experience. And, you know, I was
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I had a thriving social life, I worked in fashion, all I did was
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go to events. Like that was basically my job. And, you know,
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and if it wasn't events that I was invited to, it would be
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music videos that I was working on, or TV commercials that I was
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working on, and fashion editorials. So these are all
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like thriving social places, and to go from being too ill to get
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out of my bed for, you know, months on end, then it goes on
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to the years, and you're struggling to sort of experience
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recognition from the medical community, and you're
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struggling, and having to chase up all of this money medical
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admin all the time to just find some answers, have some hope,
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essentially, I mean, I didn't really have that experience,
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things were just getting worse.
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And, you know, at the same time, I had to go outside of the NHS,
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for some things. And then when you're in an environment where
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you're working with kind of alternative medical
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practitioners, there's no sense of accountability in those
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areas. So when you get worse, as opposed to getting better, is it
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your fault? You know, what, why aren't you getting better? I
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think a lot of people around you, when you're not getting
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acknowledged by doctors and departments in the NHS, why are
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other people in your life going to give you your illness, the
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respect deserves essentially or the recognition it deserves,
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yeah, it was really sort of toxic for me at some point to
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sort of seek health care and try to get better as well. So work
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for me was one of the only places where I could go and be
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around like minded people and to share that form of validation
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with within the community.
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Nora Logan: I know for myself, I felt a lot of grief of having to
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let go of those parts of myself.
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And again, you know, it is it was an is so different for me
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because I got sick at 28. And everything changed. So it was a
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different experience of disability than other people who
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maybe were born with it. I have and still do sometimes feel
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grief about having to change my life so much. How has that been
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present for you
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Unknown: with productivity as well, the past year has been the
00:19:04
first time I've really given myself space to not work and to
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be less than perfect, essentially, and not to
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constantly give, give, give give when I had nothing like I was
00:19:17
pouring from an empty cup for such a long time. The lack of
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support available to like disabled entrepreneurs and
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creative disabled people I think is really it's such a
00:19:28
significant lack of help and support. So you know, I've
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really had to move and shake in order to get recognition for
00:19:35
Abel zine and the work that we were trying to do. In terms of
00:19:39
the grief. I mean, this year as well. I've tried to kind of,
00:19:44
well, I recognized you know, that actually I wasn't as happy
00:19:47
as I could have been, and that through the sort of lack of
00:19:51
identity I experienced and embracing a disabled identity
00:19:57
for myself was still only one facet of who I am as a person
00:20:02
overall. So I've been trying to kind of shed or address some of
00:20:09
the grief that maybe I felt and and it's been a long journey of
00:20:12
just feeling like, you know, I don't need to look a certain
00:20:15
way, and I don't need to dress a certain way to, for my
00:20:18
experience to be true. So actually still very interested
00:20:23
in fashion and diversity and imagery and media and how we can
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kind of work within the creative sector to do significant
00:20:33
beneficial things for underrepresented communities or
00:20:38
marginalized communities and how we can essentially have a more
00:20:43
ethical, even structure for how we work in business and in
00:20:48
different sorts of companies and brands and things like that. So
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I've realized, you know, that, like I said, I don't think
00:20:56
people like complexity, but I've been forced to adapt in so many
00:21:01
different ways, as a disabled person, or as a chronically ill
00:21:05
person, that I went from styling, which was really like a
00:21:09
one track road of me thinking I need to make this work, because
00:21:16
I've put so much free time, like free labor into it in order to
00:21:20
be recognized in order to get more jobs. If I let go of this
00:21:25
and embrace some of my other sort of creative talents or
00:21:28
interests, well, I'll just be this like, you know, somebody
00:21:33
that's not good enough that that one thing that they had to
00:21:36
diversify, but I realized that's not actually true. And that
00:21:41
diversifying yourself and your outlets, it, whether it's for
00:21:47
your own personal creative investment, and like your free
00:21:50
time and your hobbies, I've got 1 hobbies. Really
00:21:55
important to me. Yeah, just to take my mind off of things,
00:21:58
essentially. But also in terms of work, I realized, if I can't
00:22:02
be productive in the way that I was before. Again, I need to
00:22:06
diversify and need to be able to offer and do lots of different
00:22:10
things in order to make a living and in order to, to continue
00:22:15
towards success, I suppose.
00:22:17
Nora Logan: I mean, I started in styling myself, and it was so
00:22:21
much lugging clothes around, and just lots of
00:22:26
Unknown: is a very, like, physical, laborious job. Yeah,
00:22:30
so physical. Yeah, it's the same as like set design. So it would
00:22:33
always be like the set team, and the styling team was like, it's
00:22:37
just so much stuff, and then picking it all up. But you know,
00:22:40
returning everything, it's, it's so demanding, it's growing. And,
00:22:45
again, I mean, in this environment, they will treat you
00:22:49
either as the glam squad, which is like heavily sexist sort of
00:22:53
attitudes that you will experience on set, or that
00:22:56
you're Mary Poppins, and that you can provide 1
00:23:00
different styles and looks for 1 different body types.
00:23:04
And it's only going to take you to like one or two days, Max,
00:23:07
you know, this, this, this idea of prep. Yeah, is severely
00:23:11
underrated.
00:23:12
Nora Logan: Especially when you're going and buying things
00:23:15
from places and then you have to return them. No, nobody talks
00:23:18
about.
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Unknown: Yeah, or just collections from prs. Yeah,
00:23:22
yeah. timeframes and everything.
00:23:22
It's a lot of public transport.
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Nora Logan: Yeah, exactly.
00:23:26
Nobody talks about that when you're applying. So you
00:23:29
mentioned it was in which you formed in 2018, after receiving
00:23:33
your own diagnosis and realizing that there were very few
00:23:37
examples of diversity, creative opportunities, or communities
00:23:41
that included disabled people.
00:23:45
Can you tell me a bit about how it came about and how you got it
00:23:50
off the ground?
00:23:52
Unknown: I actually studied fashion journalism. Prior to
00:23:55
becoming a fashion stylist. At university. We used InDesign we
00:24:00
made our own magazines, we would write about a lot of different
00:24:05
aspects of sort of image culture. And I was always, I
00:24:10
struggled with the idea of becoming a journalist, because I
00:24:12
felt at the time, like, I didn't know what voice of mine I wanted
00:24:17
to use, what voice Do I have?
00:24:17
What do I represent? Like, I guess I was struggling with my
00:24:21
identity in some ways, even back then. But it gave me skills that
00:24:24
once I became sick, and I realized, like none of these
00:24:30
creative outlets that exist, discuss disability in any kind
00:24:36
of significant way or significant amount. I know so
00:24:41
many photographers, I know so many stylists, makeup artists.
00:24:45
And now I'm beginning to know a lot of disabled people that are
00:24:50
my age and are also you know, similar to me like they care
00:24:55
about how they look what they're wearing, but they have these
00:24:57
different lives essentially, that aren't being represented
00:25:02
in, in wider discourse. And I didn't necessarily even read
00:25:08
magazines prior to starting April's in, because I thought
00:25:11
they were too expensive, full of advertisements, what are you
00:25:17
really getting, you know, beyond like a coffee table type thing
00:25:21
to keep? And yeah, they're enjoyable. But you know, who's
00:25:24
got the time to sit down and read one type thing? Yeah, I
00:25:27
just realized, like, I need an outlet to be able to talk about
00:25:30
this stuff. And I really enjoy curating these different things
00:25:36
that I'm discovering. And I think other people would enjoy
00:25:39
it, too. And I'm in a unique position that I know people that
00:25:43
can help me make it a reality.
00:25:49
And so yeah, I just didn't even know what it was going to be. I
00:25:52
just started creating content.
00:25:52
And I think for the first six months, I didn't show a single
00:25:56
person what that content looked like, I was really afraid that
00:25:59
people would think it was weird.
00:26:02
They wouldn't understand it. But I started working with a graphic
00:26:07
designer that I'd met, you know, on the on a handful of
00:26:10
occasions, but he had the time to help. And yeah, we began
00:26:15
putting it together. And by the time we were finished, I mean,
00:26:17
it took at least a year. We had like, you know, over 160 pages
00:26:23
or something of really beautiful time. So much time and
00:26:29
investment put into the way it looked. And the messages that we
00:26:32
were putting forth, that yeah, once we'd actually sent it to
00:26:36
print, I mean, the interest and the amount of support, I began
00:26:41
to receive what people were saying was, you know, made it
00:26:44
all worth it. But man was I anxious about
00:26:49
Nora Logan: but I mean, you created an incredibly beautiful
00:26:51
product, I have it in front of me, I have one of your the
00:26:55
additions in front of me. And it's so beautiful on every
00:27:00
level, you've created this sort of high fashion glossy magazine,
00:27:06
you decided from the beginning, I'm guessing to do it in print,
00:27:10
why was that important to you?
00:27:10
Why would why was that aspect of it so important to you?
00:27:16
Unknown: I think there's so few things that we, as disabled
00:27:20
people can say, is ours and is made for us and is beautiful.
00:27:26
You know, when when I first was working with a printer and being
00:27:30
asked, you know, what stock paper do you want? What finished
00:27:32
do you want, you know, we can do this, we can do that, I didn't
00:27:36
really need much time to think I realized I wanted it to be
00:27:39
glossy, and I wanted it to stand up against every other fashion
00:27:43
magazine that you'll see in the Tate Modern, or wherever you go
00:27:48
to buy magazines that are beautiful and culturally
00:27:52
outspoken. So yeah, I just realized the support, the
00:27:58
attention would always be there from within the community,
00:28:01
because we really don't have that many, like outlets that
00:28:08
celebrate us as well. And it was such a celebration of disability
00:28:12
and all of its facets, all of its manifestations and the way
00:28:16
that we can all experience it so differently that, you know, I
00:28:20
just wanted to make as important physically, as it is emotionally
00:28:25
to a lot of people.
00:28:26
Nora Logan: And also you do such a good job at showing the full
00:28:31
spectrum of everyone's humanity, or the people that you you
00:28:35
highlight and how vibrant people are. It's so often and you've
00:28:42
talked about this, it makes people uncomfortable to talk
00:28:45
about disability or to be even shown images of people who have
00:28:49
disabilities. So to create something that really celebrate
00:28:53
the community is such a beautiful thing to put out into
00:28:57
the world.
00:28:58
Unknown: Yeah, and also, we can both probably relate to this
00:29:02
experience of like grappling this new world and this former
00:29:06
world of like being able bodied, being non disabled and being
00:29:10
disabled chronically ill and experiencing all of these new
00:29:13
barriers and sort of challenges.
00:29:13
And because I could grapple and still understand both of those
00:29:19
experiences. To me, it was really important as well that
00:29:22
this wasn't just a product for the community to be seen by the
00:29:27
community and nobody else it was equally important to me that non
00:29:31
disabled people would see it, pick it up and feel safe reading
00:29:34
it and not judged and they can expose themselves to the stories
00:29:39
and these people's experiences without anyone judging them to
00:29:43
be receive it in the right way you know and to have the right
00:29:49
response is to say about it is individual personal experience.
00:29:52
When you sit down with the publication and read it, no
00:29:55
one's forcing you to if you're not interested in That's fine,
00:29:58
you know, go anyway. But if you are actually interested in
00:30:02
becoming an ally, if you're interested in just getting more
00:30:06
of an awareness and understanding of how these other
00:30:10
young people are living their lives, you know, maybe you can
00:30:12
kind of join us down the road, and maybe you will yourself if
00:30:16
you become sick. It's not like it's unheard of. So, yeah, it's
00:30:18
about making the experience accessible. And I think, as an
00:30:23
organization, we've also tried to make that content accessible
00:30:27
in different formats. So using YouTube using social media, the
00:30:31
way that we designed the magazine is very kind of
00:30:34
excessively focused. And it's been a big learning curve to
00:30:37
produce something where you feel like everyone's needs are
00:30:40
acknowledged and and it's literally not perfect. It could
00:30:44
never be, but we do try our best.
00:30:49
Nora Logan: Yeah, it's ever evolving. Like all of us, right.
00:30:53
So on your website, it says ABL zine seeks to increase
00:30:57
representation for disabled and chronically ill creatives, young
00:31:01
people and communities, both online and IRL. ABL encourages
00:31:06
dialogue and visibility within the topics of disability,
00:31:09
health, illness, and injury, as well as encouraging thought and
00:31:14
awareness around key issues like accessibility, community care
00:31:18
and representation. Our aim is to tackle ableism, and
00:31:22
discrimination through vivid, informative content, and provide
00:31:26
opportunities for those who may have previously been stigmatized
00:31:30
or unwelcome in creative and cultural spaces. Can you tell me
00:31:34
a bit about the different arms of April and how you've been
00:31:39
going about increasing visibility for disabled and
00:31:42
chronically ill creatives beyond the magazine,
00:31:45
Unknown: it's been a journey.
00:31:45
And it's, it's very personal in the sense that I've struggled
00:31:49
as, quote, a founder, an entrepreneur, an editor, to just
00:31:55
rustle up recognition, support, financial investment, to find
00:32:04
teams of people that are willing to work on this on a voluntary
00:32:09
basis. You know, I'm not somebody with inherited wealth,
00:32:14
generational wealth, wealth, medical, essentially, at the
00:32:20
time that I got put into this project, when I was working as a
00:32:24
stylist, half of it was for free, you know, because I lived
00:32:28
in London, and it was possible for me to do that at the time.
00:32:33
But, you know, I think a lot of us maybe in their late 20s,
00:32:37
early 30s, that worked in the fashion industry, we did so many
00:32:41
unpaid internships, and so lots of unpaid work in order to get
00:32:47
into this industry, that, you know, coming outside of it, and
00:32:52
wondering, how am I going to fund this? Like, how am I going
00:32:56
to create it, because I can't do it all alone. And there have
00:33:01
been a lot of people that have helped and supported in
00:33:04
different capacities, but that's constantly evolving. And I think
00:33:08
that the older that I've become, as well, the more that I
00:33:12
recognize the need for financial security and equitable pay and
00:33:15
understanding this idea of like emotional labor and activism as
00:33:21
forms of labor that need to be supported on a financial level
00:33:28
in order to make these changes in society that need to be made.
00:33:32
So I'm definitely more and more interested and pro, finding
00:33:38
employment opportunities for disabled people and financial
00:33:44
opportunities that are also mirrored in representation and
00:33:48
visibility and, and this idea of being hard. So we work and have
00:33:52
collaborated with a variety of brands and companies over the
00:33:58
past few years. On an independent level, I do
00:34:01
diversity and inclusion consultation. Now, occasionally,
00:34:05
I work as an editor on different types of publications, whether
00:34:09
that's for charities or arts organizations that are working
00:34:14
with disabled communities. I'm also have worked with the NHS
00:34:19
and there's things like different research projects and
00:34:23
things like casting for disabled models. And, yeah, in this way,
00:34:30
I think that we try to bring the disabled community with us as we
00:34:37
sort of journey back through these industries and try to
00:34:41
scope out and see where we are in terms of disability
00:34:46
inclusion, because I think we're still really really have a long
00:34:48
way to go. And it's nowhere near where it needs to be. So also
00:34:52
just sort of like I get emails all the time asking me to
00:34:57
recommend And, you know, people for certain projects or other
00:35:01
sorts of zines, and publishing, works from other disabled people
00:35:06
and stuff. And to me, it's really important that I don't
00:35:10
try to monopolize any opportunities for myself or just
00:35:14
for the people that I like. It's important that, you know, the
00:35:19
most vulnerable and the most sort of oppressed of us are also
00:35:22
getting equal access to these opportunities. Because I think
00:35:26
that, yeah, at least in the early days of Atrazine, I really
00:35:30
was aware that physically, I didn't look disabled, verbally,
00:35:35
I didn't sound disabled. But there is no like indicators,
00:35:39
essentially, of my disability by what I tell you to now
00:35:43
invisible. Yeah, I mean, I do like use mobility aids, in an
00:35:47
ambulatory capacity, it's that my disability is very
00:35:53
fluctuating. It has so many different types of experiences
00:35:56
for me as an individual that, usually when I'm at my worst,
00:36:00
you won't see me. And I think that's true for a lot of
00:36:04
disabled people as well. And as part of how we remain ostracized
00:36:06
from society. But, you know, I knew that there was a lot of
00:36:11
privileges that I had. And so my voice was definitely not the
00:36:14
most important.
00:36:17
Nora Logan: I love that you're also approaching it, and the
00:36:20
work that you're doing and who you're working with, in a way
00:36:23
that is substantive, that there's substance behind how
00:36:28
you're recommending people and companies to work with disabled
00:36:34
people, rather than it just being, you know, ticking a box
00:36:39
for it to look a certain way.
00:36:39
Have you ever experienced sort of any pushback from companies
00:36:42
in terms of how you want to go about inviting people in? Or
00:36:47
creating more accessible spaces?
00:36:52
That sort of thing?
00:36:53
Unknown: Yes, it's really hard.
00:36:53
Actually, I think that there's a couple, you know, companies that
00:36:57
strike me out is ones I've worked with, I might not
00:37:02
necessarily want to work with, again, I think that there's
00:37:04
maybe a lack of understanding in society around access
00:37:11
accessibility and the benefits of having it in the first place.
00:37:16
You know, whether you think about structural and
00:37:20
accessibility and the idea of having disabled lose, having
00:37:23
ramps that give you access into the space, lifts, things like
00:37:29
this, that, you know, sometimes because of how society has been
00:37:34
structured, and the lack of representation for disabled
00:37:38
people that has really stretched on for centuries at this point,
00:37:42
it feels like there's a lot of people having to go back in
00:37:45
order to make those changes, as opposed to, oh, it's something
00:37:48
that we can just do moving forward. But, you know, it is a
00:37:51
really complex issue. And there's a lot of different types
00:37:55
of accessibility, and things like conflicting access needs
00:37:59
that are maybe a bit advanced, to be honest. Yeah. And with
00:38:03
regards to this, yeah, yeah, I would say that there's pushback
00:38:08
there of kind of like, okay, but we were just doing it for this
00:38:13
project, or we're just going to be making it accessible in this
00:38:17
one way. And we don't necessarily have the budget to
00:38:22
do anything else, or the time or the whatever. And I'm thinking,
00:38:25
you're a whole like conglomerate, and I'm an
00:38:29
individual person with chronic fatigue and chronic pain. And
00:38:34
I've built up this whole organization and publication
00:38:38
with no money, no investment, and no structural business
00:38:42
support. And if I can do it, what the fuck is your excuse?
00:38:48
You know, it's just maddening.
00:38:53
And like, there's people that have consistently come back to
00:38:56
me time and again, expecting me to do things for free, when in
00:39:00
reality, it's to benefit their business. And I'm honestly like,
00:39:05
don't tell me that what I have to say is important, if you
00:39:09
yourself, don't even acknowledge my right to exist and survive
00:39:13
and capitalism. It's so transparent to me. And I think
00:39:16
people maybe feign a bit of like incompetence with stuff like
00:39:20
this, when in reality, they wouldn't agree to do that work
00:39:24
for free, and they're sat there on a salary that I'm not
00:39:27
entitled to. So yeah, I think I get really, really flustered.
00:39:33
And, and it's part of this whole idea of picking your battles,
00:39:37
too. Sometimes it's just too tiring. And I can't be bothered
00:39:40
to educate people, you know, that have already shown that
00:39:43
they're not that interested. So I think, again, it's like I'm
00:39:47
not really an advocate for call out culture or things like that.
00:39:51
i Yeah, call in culture, I believe it's something
00:39:54
different. And also, I think there's a different level of
00:39:57
expectation we should have for individual As opposed to like
00:40:01
organizations and big companies that have a lot of investment
00:40:05
and the structural ability to hire consultants and to have,
00:40:11
you know, I don't know if you saw this thing at wireless
00:40:12
festival with the disabled platform being like pretty much
00:40:17
outside of the festival itself.
00:40:17
And the fact that there was probably no disabled person in
00:40:22
the room when this sort of like structural planning was being
00:40:25
put together for how the festival was going to function.
00:40:28
And I think we have probably come quite far with this idea
00:40:33
that diversity is about race.
00:40:38
And that's something that most businesses factor into the
00:40:43
hiring processes and kind of HR, things like this, but we still
00:40:48
don't really acknowledge disability enough for most
00:40:51
companies to consider it as something to watch out for.
00:40:56
Nora Logan: And then it seems a cultural thing, right? It is a
00:41:00
cultural thing living in an ableist society, and a lack of
00:41:04
imagination, because the disabled community are extremely
00:41:06
imaginative. Yeah. Paired with a lack of imagination paired with
00:41:12
a lack of interest, right? Yeah.
00:41:12
So it's something that your agency, it's so incredible that
00:41:18
you're going in, and at least making these suggestions. And
00:41:21
also, it's ramping in creative industries that nobody wants to
00:41:26
pay anyone, especially if it's a freelance capacity, it's
00:41:30
something that I've experienced for my entire career.
00:41:36
Unknown: Yeah. And it's an issue, this idea that of like,
00:41:40
you know, having to go backwards to make changes that should have
00:41:43
been there from day one does so many examples of Virg example,
00:41:50
Instagram, up until last year, there was no way to
00:41:55
automatically caption content in a way that may have been
00:41:58
familiar to people that use YouTube or create video content.
00:42:03
And because it wasn't implemented in the structure of
00:42:06
the app, from the beginning, it took years and years and years
00:42:10
of extra development to bring in this feature that could have
00:42:13
been easily embedded into the coding from the get go. And
00:42:19
there's lots of other examples like that, where, you know, we
00:42:23
think of something is being a disability related access
00:42:27
measure, like captioning, but you don't need to be deaf to
00:42:31
benefit from seeing caption content, you might be at work,
00:42:35
trying to stealthily watch a video on your phone, and benefit
00:42:39
from being able to read that content. You know, and there's
00:42:44
countless and countless examples. And I think, not to
00:42:47
toot my own horn, but at least I know of this stuff. And I can
00:42:50
actually bring it to people's attention and say, look at all
00:42:54
these different examples. This is why actually is better to be
00:42:58
inclusive from the beginning.
00:42:58
You don't realize it now. But you're making your business,
00:43:02
your environment, that much more inclusive, and you're going to
00:43:06
increase your business size your your audience and your revenue,
00:43:11
by having it like this, as opposed to being exclusionary.
00:43:15
And just, you know, making up excuses and making more and more
00:43:20
and more excuses as to why you won't act,
00:43:25
Nora Logan: essentially, in a Vogue interview in 2020, you
00:43:28
said, we are the largest minority group in the world, and
00:43:32
the only one that anyone can become a part of at any moment.
00:43:36
So we need to be asking ourselves, Why are we always
00:43:39
left out? Too many people have gotten away with not addressing
00:43:43
disability as a social issue, because they can you could say
00:43:47
that about other forms of discrimination. People ignore
00:43:50
it, because they can. That does not mean they should. So it
00:43:54
stands to reason. Exactly. To your point, what you just said,
00:43:58
companies making things more accessible, you're reaching more
00:44:02
people, because it's the largest minority group in the world. And
00:44:07
I'm curious, because this question of uncomfortability
00:44:11
and, and people feeling uncomfortable around it. And
00:44:15
it's an a question and open question and inquiry that I
00:44:19
asked myself consistently. How can we shift that uncomfortable
00:44:24
feeling that people have how what are things that we can
00:44:28
continue to do to help people to feel less uncomfortable around
00:44:34
these things, with also acknowledging that it's not
00:44:38
necessarily our job to do that emotional labor
00:44:42
Unknown: for people? Yeah, I think the area where I've seen
00:44:47
the most sort of change has been in TV and the fact that there
00:44:52
are a lot more disabled people working as presenters and
00:44:55
bringing disability into people's living rooms and I
00:44:59
think that is hugely important and hugely affects the kind of
00:45:04
that feeling of discomfort that people can experience when they
00:45:08
see a visibly disabled person.
00:45:08
You know, I think one of the important things we've tried to
00:45:12
do with angels in has represent disability as a spectrum. And
00:45:15
not to like and disability with just having a visible
00:45:20
disability, not just being a wheelchair user, not just having
00:45:24
sensory impairment, we need to be creating awareness for all of
00:45:29
the different ways that disability can manifest in order
00:45:33
to really create inclusive environments. I, as somebody
00:45:36
with more of a less visible disability will experience
00:45:41
different forms of discrimination, and I'll have
00:45:44
different types of experiences than a wheelchair user will. And
00:45:47
they couldn't be more different sometimes, you know, and we
00:45:52
really need to pay attention and learn about both of those
00:45:56
experiences. So I think, you know, representation is, is
00:45:59
never enough. It is just one element of like making a little
00:46:04
bit of progress, I suppose. How can
00:46:07
Nora Logan: we make people pay attention to? Yeah, disability,
00:46:11
Unknown: I'd say this is a controversial opinion. But I
00:46:14
think more people need to become disabled. And I think it's
00:46:18
happening right now. And it would be ignorant to not use
00:46:24
COVID, as an example of a mass disabling mass death event that
00:46:30
is currently ongoing, and being perpetuated through a lack of
00:46:34
COVID protections in society.
00:46:34
You know, this podcast isn't necessarily about eugenics. But
00:46:38
there are so many Genesis practices being rolled out in
00:46:42
front of our eyes, and even individual choices that being
00:46:47
made in terms of spreading COVID, and a lack of regard for
00:46:49
the people that it can impact the worst. But we're seeing so
00:46:53
many people becoming disabled through long COVID. And these
00:46:57
sort of ongoing symptoms that people can't seem to shift. And
00:47:01
I think as a society and living in like capitalism, we're
00:47:05
experiencing a lot of fatigue, for this sense of productivity
00:47:11
that is drilled into us and really, like, it's not a need in
00:47:16
society to be as productive as we are. And we're not necessary,
00:47:23
or maybe it is, but we're not necessarily being productive in
00:47:27
all the right ways. Yeah, we're productive at making money for
00:47:29
companies. But are we productive at farming our foods, and making
00:47:33
sure that those foods are healthy for children, and
00:47:36
essentially those that need to be fed, which is all of us. And
00:47:40
for me, at least I've experienced a form of
00:47:43
environmental disability, I have chemical sensitivity. There are
00:47:48
really common preservatives that are used in food and cosmetics,
00:47:52
hygiene products that I need to stay away from in order not to
00:47:56
develop cancer, for example. And that's something I know because
00:48:02
I've been made sick. You know, not everybody knows that. Yeah,
00:48:06
and not everybody knows the invisible ways that their bodies
00:48:09
are struggling. And mental health is another branch, I
00:48:13
suppose to disability that is as important as physical
00:48:18
disabilities, we need to be exploring ways to make ourselves
00:48:22
happier, as a society, less dependent on, I guess, harmful
00:48:27
forms of this idea of disconnecting from our
00:48:32
experiences, because we're experiencing trauma. You know, I
00:48:36
know a lot of people whose parents have died, maybe not
00:48:40
both of them from COVID, but even losing one parents COVID.
00:48:43
And then seeing the government tear away all forms of
00:48:47
protections even for in hospital settings. You know, it's It's
00:48:51
barbaric. Yeah, it's really, we all want to move forward. We all
00:48:55
want to enjoy life. And I think that we just need to care about
00:48:59
one another in those moments where we decide how are you
00:49:03
going to do that, you know, and we're not all disposable. And I
00:49:07
think that sick people have been treated as disposable in society
00:49:10
for so long. I like to think of my voice as important. But if
00:49:14
someone doesn't know me, doesn't know my experience, they
00:49:18
wouldn't necessarily usually listen to My voice and realize,
00:49:21
through our lived experiences, how much we gain, how much
00:49:27
insight how much creativity, how like the ability to adapt, and
00:49:33
the things that we learn. We if we had if we'd had a COVID task
00:49:37
force, put together with like, the most influential, disabled
00:49:43
people in society, potentially things could we could live in a
00:49:48
utopia Yeah. Or at least have experienced far less death and
00:49:52
far less destruction, I suppose.
00:49:57
Nora Logan: Yeah, I think a lot of us looked around in life. To
00:50:00
2020. And I could see exactly what we needed to do, because
00:50:06
we'd already done it before.
00:50:06
Then seeing how it's been rolled out. And what's happened in the
00:50:10
interim has been, in some ways at the very beginning,
00:50:15
beautiful, but then shocking and like you say, in some ways
00:50:18
barbaric.
00:50:21
Unknown: And it's the most vulnerable people in society,
00:50:23
you know, that are continually hit the hardest. And, you know,
00:50:27
I think there's a big sort of judgment and harassment of
00:50:31
disabled people as being these like benefit frauds and lazy and
00:50:35
we don't want to work and we don't want to contribute to
00:50:39
society, we just want to skive off other people's hard work.
00:50:43
Say that to all of the working class people that can no longer
00:50:46
afford to take, you know, sick pay from COVID and have to go
00:50:49
and expose people to COVID and work environments because they
00:50:52
can't afford to lose out on money, there is no follow, there
00:50:56
is no sick pay. Those people are working really, really, really
00:50:59
hard. And there's other people that are working really, really
00:51:02
hard just to stay alive. And if you think those two experiences
00:51:05
are that different than you've obviously never been sick, or
00:51:09
disabled for any significant period of time in your life.
00:51:12
Yeah, I think it's so far more common than people believe it to
00:51:17
be. And it's just this idea of like shoving people away,
00:51:21
there's someone who used to always say to me, it doesn't
00:51:23
give them energy, it doesn't give them energy. It's maybe
00:51:27
more of a spiritual concept. But this idea that people don't want
00:51:30
to actually it's the founder of the nightstand collective.
00:51:34
There's an interview between her and another journalist in the US
00:51:39
that has me, both of them have me but also, like me,
00:51:44
endometriosis, other forms of war to autoimmune diseases, pain
00:51:48
diseases. And they were, you know, asking, you know, why do
00:51:53
people think the nightstand Collective is so depressing? You
00:51:57
know, why are people so critical of it, and don't see the value
00:52:02
in it, you know, just pictures of people's bed stands, it's
00:52:06
just images of like that previous private times, you
00:52:10
know, and times that aren't necessarily for everyone's
00:52:14
exposure. But she just kept saying is because it doesn't
00:52:18
give them energy. People don't want to hear the hard things,
00:52:24
they don't want to know how much you've suffered. They don't want
00:52:27
to hear about how horribly you were treated by society for
00:52:32
something that wasn't your fault. Because it doesn't give
00:52:35
them energy, you know. And it's, it's true to a certain degree,
00:52:38
Nora Logan: I think it's true to a certain degree. And we should
00:52:40
say that the nightstand collective was an and is an
00:52:44
ongoing exhibition of different photos of people's nightstands,
00:52:47
people who are chronically ill, or disabled, they're really
00:52:51
beautiful photos, there's so much the nightstand for me was
00:52:56
my whole world for so long. And I think showing people those
00:53:01
images, and then also talking about these things, connects us
00:53:07
in a way that's so needed, because there are, like we just
00:53:12
said that it's the largest minority group in the world,
00:53:15
there are so many people who will identify with these images,
00:53:18
and also talking about these things. And I understand the
00:53:23
sentiment that it doesn't give them energy of putting people
00:53:26
away to one side and not looking at it because it's too hard. But
00:53:30
more and more people are becoming disabled, more and more
00:53:34
people have experienced illness.
00:53:34
And I like to think of it as this large, beautiful community
00:53:39
of people who need each other in order to be seen.
00:53:47
Unknown: It's it's a portal and acknowledgement of existence,
00:53:53
outside of the norm as society sees it. And I think, you know,
00:53:57
society told us that we're all white, you know, yeah, society
00:54:02
told us that European beauty standards are the best. Society
00:54:05
taught us that, you know, to be good at in school, you need to
00:54:10
have a really good memory, you need to memorize like quotes
00:54:13
from Shakespeare and all that sort of stuff. Take that into
00:54:15
your later life and those the way we judge people through like
00:54:19
education, or in in business environments, hiring practices,
00:54:24
they can be like, heavily influenced by racism, and other
00:54:28
forms of discrimination. It just needs the research, you know, to
00:54:32
to prove those things. And I think as a society, we're far
00:54:35
more aware now of unconscious bias and what impact that has in
00:54:41
lots of different areas of society, but with with the
00:54:45
nightstand collective. It proves to us that we exist and we
00:54:49
actually exist in maths and that the experiences that we're
00:54:54
having when we're siphoned off by society and isolated, are
00:54:58
still as real As everybody else has lived experience, and what
00:55:04
the nightstand collective does so well is, really values
00:55:08
emphasize the value and the takeaways from that isolation
00:55:12
and that illness because you don't stop learning, you don't
00:55:16
stop evolving, you are just on a different trajectory. And
00:55:21
actually in a different type of world, that could be the thing
00:55:25
that saves you and the thing that separates you from the
00:55:27
rest.
00:55:28
Nora Logan: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't stop you from being in
00:55:31
the full spectrum of your humanity. In some ways, it
00:55:34
expands your capacity to be human. So that brings me to my
00:55:39
question around your own chronic illness and disability. If you
00:55:46
lived in a world that completely catered to your me and other
00:55:49
conditions that you've been diagnosed with, since your
00:55:52
initial diagnosis, what would that look like?
00:55:55
Unknown: I would really love a teleportation device. So anybody
00:56:00
can create that, for me, that would literally change my life.
00:56:03
But in terms of an eye, realistic, ideal world, I think
00:56:10
that we need to evolve from capitalism. With capitalism. I'm
00:56:18
not here to talk about my economic beliefs, I suppose. But
00:56:24
Nora Logan: it's all part of it
00:56:27
Unknown: really, like, really affects how we live our lives.
00:56:31
And I think that, through my own privileges, I have been able to
00:56:36
work and not work and sort of see place those things side by
00:56:40
side and understand what's important, what I've been able
00:56:45
to take away. And I believe that the less pressure we put on
00:56:50
people to work, the happier we'll be, and the more we'll
00:56:53
work. I don't think that like bullying and beating people into
00:56:59
this form of productivity, I don't believe in a five day
00:57:02
working week, I would believe in a four day working week. And
00:57:06
more than that, I believe that a universal income would make a
00:57:11
huge positive financial difference to this world and the
00:57:14
way that we are each able to survive within it and have an
00:57:18
equal access to the things that we really need in order to
00:57:21
thrive. And I believe that disabled and sick people, I
00:57:25
believe that single mothers, I believe that matriarchs and
00:57:30
people with large families, people with families with
00:57:32
diverse needs carers that have to look after elderly parents,
00:57:37
grandparents, aunts, Uncle should all have access to food,
00:57:43
and that ability to heat their homes and ability to go out and
00:57:47
have joyful experiences in that communities. And that we
00:57:51
shouldn't be siphoning off something as universal as
00:57:55
caregiving into this arena where although all those people should
00:57:59
be poor, and all those people should be judged, and they
00:58:02
shouldn't be given a livable income, because what they're
00:58:05
doing isn't valuable enough compared to going and working in
00:58:09
a bank for like, no, no 12 holidays or whatever. We really
00:58:15
undervalue a lot of different areas in society, where we show
00:58:19
our humanity and where we connect and the path to one
00:58:22
another. And I'd much rather live in a world where people
00:58:25
were looked after collectively, then one where you have to be
00:58:30
incredibly privileged and financially secure, to have
00:58:34
access to nice things in life.
00:58:34
It just doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be about
00:58:37
diamonds and fast cars. It's really about being happy being
00:58:41
content, being with family, being with friends, and having
00:58:45
good food, and an ability to enjoy life
00:58:52
Nora Logan: and teleportation until
00:58:56
Unknown: I should be working on instead of a magazine.
00:58:59
Nora Logan: So Claudia, what's one thing that you do to keep
00:59:02
yourself creative each day?
00:59:04
Unknown: I have a lot of hobbies. As a creative person.
00:59:07
My hands are really important to me and working with my hands on
00:59:12
a daily basis, but I have developed chronic pain as a
00:59:16
result. Incredibly debilitating chronic pain in my arms. It's
00:59:20
the same with typing. You know, whenever I'm really stuck into a
00:59:23
project or feeling obsessive about something. It's like my
00:59:28
body's like, stop, slow down.
00:59:28
Yeah, you need to you need to regulate yourself, because
00:59:32
overworking this, even if comparatively, it doesn't seem
00:59:37
like that much. You're my body just doesn't function in the way
00:59:41
that I'd always like it to. And also, I think that one we
00:59:45
shouldn't necessarily believe that creativity is a daily
00:59:50
practice. I think it's important that we sometimes give up and go
00:59:54
through experience instances where we are not always being
01:00:00
given the energy, you know, sometimes we actually need to
01:00:04
let it all go. And then finally, for me, my personal practice,
01:00:11
there have been a lot of days, where, you know, wearing the
01:00:17
same tracksuit from Monday to Friday, because I haven't really
01:00:20
done anything, I haven't really left the house. But something as
01:00:23
simple as like picking out my jewelry, maybe putting on a
01:00:27
little bit of lipstick, to go to the corner shop. buy snacks,
01:00:31
it's the best place to pick Well, I mean, we COVID Stop
01:00:36
halftime anyway, it's my own way to kind of give back to myself
01:00:41
and connect with those other forms of my identity that are
01:00:46
rooted in like aesthetics and imagery and things that do give
01:00:50
me life and give me the energy.
01:00:54
Nora Logan: It's beautiful. And finally, what's one phrase or
01:00:58
saying that you always come back to,
01:01:01
Unknown: I don't know if if there's one like there's been
01:01:05
throughout my life or anything, but in terms of my most recent
01:01:10
internal discoveries, and where I'm at right now, I think that a
01:01:15
phrase that I say to myself, a lot goes along something like
01:01:21
this, nobody can kill your joy, and nobody can steal your peace,
01:01:29
or nobody should have the capacity to steal your peace,
01:01:34
kill your joy. I think as disabled people, we are really
01:01:38
not encouraged to find happiness and to live happily. And I don't
01:01:44
think that we especially in like social media culture, and this
01:01:49
idea of scrutiny as well that we're under as disabled people,
01:01:54
either from like a governmental perspective, or your neighbors,
01:01:59
it just always kind of feels like there's a sense of
01:02:02
surveillance. And it's something that I've really struggled with
01:02:05
myself, this idea that you can't just be that you have to
01:02:09
constantly be an activist, or advocate, and that you have to
01:02:14
constantly be showing your disability and proving your
01:02:17
disability to get the help, and the care that you need. And that
01:02:21
is just always feels like so much work. And there's not
01:02:24
really that much space for just being true to yourself, and
01:02:27
prioritizing what brings you happiness, and what brings you
01:02:30
joy, peace, a sense of fulfillment. Those are the most
01:02:35
important things, though. And so I think you have to really tell
01:02:38
yourself, that no one's entitled to take that from you,
01:02:42
regardless of what you're experiencing. And I know that
01:02:46
sometimes it's ourselves that we don't give, allow ourselves to
01:02:49
be happy. We don't allow ourselves to, to find joy. I
01:02:54
mean, it's such an active thing that one must do, I think is you
01:02:58
know, especially in capitalism, we're not encouraged to find our
01:03:02
joy, unless it's like through escapism. And so really
01:03:05
connecting inward and just feeling like, no, no one has the
01:03:09
right to take that from you, regardless of what you're
01:03:12
experiencing. So give as much to yourself as you can, for as long
01:03:16
as you can.
01:03:17
Nora Logan: I love that and just the right to just be and also
01:03:22
finding joy in hobbies. I feel like everyone creates their
01:03:26
hobbies into side hustles. And we're allowed to just do things
01:03:32
for the fun of it.
01:03:34
Unknown: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
01:03:34
And just to be, I don't know, it seems like a lot of people a lot
01:03:38
of different things will will tell you that actually, that's
01:03:42
not okay just to be to exist.
01:03:47
You don't have to be giving back all the time, and feeding into a
01:03:51
cycle that harms you political and economic beliefs coming
01:03:56
through a little bit.
01:03:58
Nora Logan: Well, thank you so much for being here today.
01:04:00
Claudio? How can people find you? How can they engage with
01:04:03
your work?
01:04:04
Unknown: You can follow Abel zine on Instagram. You can find
01:04:09
us online Abels n.com. And you can follow me on my personal
01:04:14
account, which is little get Adam Lal G double R, er A?
01:04:21
Nora Logan: And can you just take us out quickly tell us the
01:04:24
origins of that name, and what get it means warrior in Spanish.
01:04:28
Unknown: I'm half Mexican. And so for me, especially when I
01:04:33
lost my sense of identity and in London, I really began to feel
01:04:38
more and more like maybe that's where I'll find healing and
01:04:41
where I'll find joy by leaving the environment that made me
01:04:45
sick, and finding myself again in the environment of my
01:04:49
heritage. And also I think that there's a lot of kind of like
01:04:54
inspirational quotes that disabled and chronically ill
01:04:58
people are sometimes subjected to threw around this idea of
01:05:01
being a warrior and being super, super human with the Paralympics
01:05:06
and all these different types of ways that we make disability
01:05:09
acceptable again. And I think we all actually go straight to that
01:05:13
place when we're first sick, we're like, either this is
01:05:16
literally definitely, it just needs to end. Or, you know, I
01:05:20
need to be this idea of the good patient, the good cancer
01:05:25
fighter, the chronic illness warrior, and this and that. But
01:05:29
to a certain degree, I think that being a warrior, it's not
01:05:33
like a choice. It's something as a result of the circumstances
01:05:38
that you find yourself in this idea that you have to fight
01:05:41
regardless of whether you're inherently strong or not. I
01:05:44
mean, I think we all are, but there is a different level of
01:05:48
fighting that you have to do internally and externally, when
01:05:52
you're sick. You feel like you're fighting your body for
01:05:55
ownership. And you're also fighting for recognition and to
01:05:58
be heard and to have your experiences acknowledged. And so
01:06:03
regardless of where I've been in my illness, health journey that
01:06:09
is still happening every day. So it's a bit tongue in cheek,
01:06:13
essentially.
01:06:15
Nora Logan: But thanks for sharing with us. Thanks for
01:06:16
being here. Maybe we'll find out and get it as warriors as we
01:06:21
continue on.
01:06:22
Unknown: Yeah, thank you for having me.
01:06:26
Nora Logan: That was our show.
01:06:26
So like once you Dad, thanks so much for listening. This episode
01:06:29
was made in collaboration with some support from Soho House.
01:06:33
Many thanks to Jamila brown been trumped in Olivia Garrity to
01:06:38
Gaul, Mohammed, Erica B'nai and to Vandenbroucke our
01:06:42
illustrations are by Renee Fagan. And if you like what you
01:06:45
hear, please subscribe. Leave us a review, or rate us on Apple
01:06:49
podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts rating us
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and subscribing really makes a difference. You can find us on
01:06:56
Instagram at your life once you Dad where we talk about what's
01:06:59
coming up and how we probably need to rest more. Thanks so
01:07:02
much and see you next time.
